To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

I had a lovely father. Kind, wise, responsible, always did the right thing and always put family first. Sadly I was rather naive - not necessarily because of this but I am open to the possibility that it might have played a part - and believed that the vast majority of men were like this too, and marriage and a family would make them more so not less. It took a long time for me to realise that exH was never going to step up to the plate.

My father and my exH had a good relationship. If there is a heaven and my father is looking down, he's going to kill my exH for a second time in the afterlife.
My own experience would make me very wary of the narrative that women from bad homes ignore red flags and that's the only pathway to a toxic relationship.

I know of one woman who had the worst childhood and later abusive relationships but did find the kindest most gentle man who loves her deeply and treats her very well. He had an abusive childhood as well.

Few people I know had idyllic family homes. However we take not just our experiences but our personalities into relationships as well. Not all people with good childhoods are well adjusted decent people, not all those with bad childhoods are emotional basket cases.

We all have the ability to leave our past in the past. Sometimes we need a little help knowing what to shelve. Not all those who are lost remain lost, they sometimes just need a gentle point in the right direction but they have to be open to it.

Some abusive men like strong and confident women who call out behaviour they are not happy with at the start of a relationship. They appear to resolve any issues and so the relationship continues with what is assumed to be greater understanding of boundaries and expectations.

They play the part of a good partner with whom it is OK to share experiences with that might make you temporarily dependent or vulnerable.

Then bam you become pregnant, a new mother (even when planned), or random, bereaved, ill etc and it all crumbles overnight. In addition to the primary 'trauma' or experience you are also dealing with a DH who seems to have had a personality transplant over night. This really fucks with your head.

DH went from excitedly awaiting birth to unable to even lift 5lb baby because of mysterious back injury even though I'd had C-section and insisting that I did everything - he couldn't possibly take care of me or change nappies or even bring baby to me to breastfeed because he was in so much pain and I was evil for not putting him first. He was jealous of the baby breastfeeding ... let's leave it there, I will vomit if I elaborate.

They vacillate between anger and wanting to punish you and love bombing. Eventually it is just anger and desire to punish and you are a shadow of your former self.

It is only when you deal with the primary experience/trauma and with hindsight that you can piece together the side shit show and think maybe it was a red flag that they pretended to praise you and appreciate that you stood up for yourself and had such strong boundaries (unlike ex girlfriends or their mother). Really they were biding their time. Waiting for inevitable vulnerability.

But then maybe by then your temporary dependence and vulnerability has become the norm and you find yourself stuck in a relationship that seems to randomly switch from tolerable to abusive and you can't make it OK or escape without the help of woman's aid.

@PocketSand Your post really resonates with me. As I said, my husband's behaviour started to get bad after my father died but the first time he threw something in anger was when I got home after an unexpected doctors visit and was tired and in pain. I booked us in for marriage counselling that afternoon, but it didn't make any difference.

@PocketSand absolutely, this resonated with me.

Another thing I realised at a certain point was he was very good at getting me to share historic vulnerable moments, moments of self-doubt or insecurity. These would be met with seeming empathy and caring, only to be turned on me at some later date when I was vulnerable again.

Absolutely.

I can accept that some abusers of course show signs of taking people for granted early on (such as the example I gave above of the DH basically being an inconsiderate twerp) which is escalates when you are tied together financially and with DC and specifically target emotionally close people in their lives such as their spouse.

But some people are capable of a level of deception that is unfathomable to an inexperienced person, either professionally or through life experience and there are no signs. I think it's a comfort blanket to think that there are early signs, the alternative (which some of us here know) is terrifying. That a person has the potential to lie and manipulate you out of your own life - these are not extremely clever people I don't think - but a non-'evil' person could not be capable of such things because they would build emotional connection with their partner, and as such see their pain as their own and stop inflicting it. Some psychos are able to essentially squash you without any pain and will do so if it benefits them.

I heard a criminal psychologist recently interviewed say that the most terrifying murderer he'd studied was a man finally locked up after murdering his third wife (all died in circumstances that could be circumstantial eg fell in front of a train - on the third murder indisputable evidence was found). He in every regard presented as decent a man - without a temper or troubled history etc- but the terrifying thing was he tried desperately to make himself out to be the victim of terrible bad luck. He needed the psychologist to show sympathy for him - he needed sympathy like I need air. He needed to control the other person. He wasn't exactly lying to get sympathy or a lighter sentence (like perhaps a 'regular' criminal would) he actually BECAME in his mind a person who deserved sympathy. He did this for control. Like rape, which I understand is mostly not about sex, but about power and control. In rape the victim is overpowered physically through strength or drugs or such, with this the power is felt through psychological manipulations. I don't think any of this is conscious or thought through it's an instinct like treading water if you fall in a swimming pool. This level of deception involves deep self deception and allows potential abusers to present fully as decent people. You'd have to be an extremely well trained professional psychologist, with also a lot of emotional support and back up from other professionals, to resist the level of emotional and psychological manipulation metered out by this man.

So yeah, imo the idea of red flags for abuse is a red herring. For me a red flag is something more flippant - eg, the guy doesn't like playing sport but he likes watching it. For me, that would be a red flag indicating we would spend all out weekends indoors indulging his TV based entertainment rather than going hiking like I prefer. Nowhere near abuse, but it a red flag which indicates the relationship will not work for us.

This conversation is absolutely fascinating to me, as good as therapy.
My exH definitely took something I confided in him and turned it against me at the end of the relationship. When the kids were younger I worked part-time but I always said that I planned to go back to full-time work eventually. My main reason was that I'm a bit of a worrier and I like to be busy and I could see a possibility of becoming anxious if I had too much time on my hands. Very normal conversation and exH seemed very understanding and supportive.
Towards the end of the relationship and after we broke up he tried everything to convince me that he was a good guy and the problems I had with him were just in my mind and a product of my anxiety. He genuinely wanted me to get a prescription for Valium instead of him cutting down on his insane drinking.

Reading the news article of Gisele Pelicot reminded me of this thread. The warning signs something was off in her relationship was once her beer seemed to have a green tinge and an unexplained bleach stain in a pair of trousers - described as the 'perfect couple' one can hardly argue these are red flags that she was being abused.

I really hate quoting the perpetrator, but he said you cannot imagine the unimaginable which pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.