To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

Backtracking on what? Win what? What game are we playing?

@OrangeCarrot You deliberately created this narrative. Look at the ignorance in your first post. It is not the job of those who have experienced abuse to educate you. Take some responsibility for your ignorance and educate yourself. I’m out - this is a waste of my time, and you deliberately wrote your post in an inflammatory way (citing ‘lust’ as an only explanation for why women ‘miss red flags’) in order to get a reaction. You have contributed absolutely nothing to the ‘nuance’ and ‘complexity’ you now seem keen on repeating. Very odd behaviour.

I think having any relationship involves a degree of trust and willful blindness, even with a good person. This is why people who have suffered an abusive relationship can find it so difficult to have a normal healthy relationship.

I think that creating an expectation that by being hyper vigilant one can avoid becoming ensnared in an abusive relationship is likely to create a situation where you are so guarded and defensive that you aren't able to be vulnerable and open enough to develop trust and closeness with a good person.

It is so complicated though. It can creep up on people and so feels normal. People can be very lovely a lot of the time and abusive some of the time. It isn’t always black and white. Sometimes both people are a bit unreasonable but one partner tips into becoming abusive. It is usually portrayed as straightforward on tv and in movies so that viewers don’t victim blame, but in reality it is rarely straightforward for the people involved especially when they love the people they are being abused by or are abusing (whatever love means).

Your original message said that red flags are ALWAYS there and that they're missed because women are in lust, basically suggesting that they're so busy having sex that they're not noticing the man is a bad 'un. Bad women. Naughty women feeling all the feelings and the lust and the sex.

Now you're saying that it's more complex and that the reasons red flags, if they are there, are missed, are varied and it's not the women's fault. So I consider it a win as you have moved away from blaming women's need for a man and sex to accepting that there are lots of nuanced reasons.

Yeah, actually, outside of OP's contributions it's actually been an interesting thread though with some useful insights and comments I think!

The hostility is astounding.

People are allowed to have different opinions. There’s been comments explaining how in their experience sometimes there’s no red flag to see and people just change.

I accept this. Reading the responses has widened my perspective that there’s not always red flags. I still imagine that it’s very rare that there isn’t a red flag before things turn abusive but I concede that it’s unlikely be never.

See… this is how discussions and listening to other people’s viewpoints works…

I see!

Well I’ve explained my choice of words and apologised about how you and maybe others have interpreted it.

I’m glad I posted the thread and the discussion it generated as it has been interesting.

I'm not really sure how else we were suppose to interpret the statement that I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust but I'm glad you feel that this has been interesting and your viewpoint has been expanded.

There were definitely red flags which I ignored. Since then, I only go on what is done rather than what is said ( deeds not words as the suffragettes said) and I hate the "be kind" narrative, yes but by being kind - thinking he was unwell - nearly lost me my son. I do believe many ignore the red flags as they trust others to be good and there are lots of not good, selfish people around

I just wanted to add that posts that say that 'I didn't notice and nobody did either' should potentially be treated with a pinch of salt. I have a friend who was extremely defensive of her abusive partner and absolutely wouldn't even begin to accept people's concerns so people kept them from her otherwise they were worried they would be cut out of her life. Now she has left him and is accepting that the relations was abusive, she is absolutely insistent that there were no red flags as nobody was able to plainly tell her what we were suspecting. It isn't just complex for those suffering abuse but also those trying to support someone that they suspect (but aren't completely sure) are being abused.

A red flag is a warning. But if it's buried in amongst a lot of positive behaviours I can see why it might be 'missed' as most abusers are masters at testing and then retreating or gaslighting or proceeding once they know what they can get away with. It's explained away or justified in the context of a wider relationship where they are broadly consistent in being a positive in that person's life (at that point). What I'm saying is it's not necessarily that the red flag is missed it's just the abuser hides it or justifies it or minimises it and that becomes the narrative that the abused partner lives by.

That was completely my experience

Exactly this. The cycle of abuse: tale as old as time...

Sometimes, you know things sound off but you believe their excuses because why would they lie?
This is often how women who've had good male role models in their life can still end up in abusive relationships. They don't realise the lies and excuses men make are lies and excuses and red flags.

I know it's not the point of your thread, but it's similar: I wondered the same about cheating husbands (in many cases, a kind of abusers). You read devastating stories here, about women who were absolutely sure to be sharing their lives and children with wonderful partners, who then become little less than cold sociopaths. It breaks my heart and fills me with dread, to read them, because I identify with having that kind of partnership with my DH...

I moved heaven and earth to get out of an abusive relationship, with 2 children. I had been with him 10 years before his real self showed up. When I had our son, who he was jealous of.

My son was suicidal and CAMHs told me I was at fault for not getting my ex out of the house.

I spent thousands getting an occupation order and forcing a house sale and him gone. No one helped me a jot Keep your ignorant nonsense to yourself.

This is an awful thread. Victims, survivor's or even families effected by the lose of someone through DV must feel great readying this.

Dv is complex . Its not just about the physical stuff and the shouting. And seeing red flags or not seeing them . Its also Psychological and the mind is also very complex. If it was as simple as seeing red flags no one would be in DV situations.

Why is it awful reading? Do you think people that miss red flags should be shamed or blamed or are somehow lesser victims? I feel this is where a lot of the defensiveness is coming from and it's really unhelpful.

If there are always some red flags that are detectable by some people then this is hugely empowering for people. It means that there is a way to improve the odds of not getting drawn into an abusive relationship again by spotting the signs earlier.

You can't understand this without understanding the economics.

In many cases women put up with this because it's so financially difficult to leave. So they also lack role models to show them it's possible.

The news reports today say only the top 10% by income can now afford the UK average house price!

@Donttellempike I am so sorry that happened to you and even though I don't know you, I am proud you achieved this!

I sometimes think the term red flag is too blamey like it's something so damn obvious you were an idiot to miss it, sometimes it's not an easy spot.

I've had relationships where something seemed off but were symptoms of past issues. Red flag suggests they can't be fixed but that's not true, many can. Again the term red flag is harsh it puts the onus on both to spot and stop before it happens while not being qualified or knowledgeable enough to do so.

Look how many people talk about red flags they didn't spot when they were young, the expectation for people to know this stuff is too much, it needs experience, you can't teach much of this. Not everyone personally analyses everything they or their partner does and it doesn't make them bad people for not doing that.

I have and sometimes do use the term. However I've come to realise It's just another thing to berate others with and a smug way to refuse to support others.

I don't know how you got that from my post ... im not victim blaming at all . I'm saying the opposite. Ie that victim blaming should not happen.

My daughter is a surviveor of DV she is still effected by it. Even now she's having to move again due to her abuser finding where she lives she's at a level of life on danger .

I honestly don't get where you think I victim blamed

I agree with this. It can create an imbalance of power that wasn’t necessarily there at the start of the relationship.

I don't think you're necessarily victim blaming but I think you have some internalised the idea that accepting that there are always red flags (no matter how subtle they may be) would mean that the abuse was somehow avoidable and therefore the victim is somehow to blame. Hence why you think this thread would be difficult reading for victims because you think they would assume that they should have identified the red flags.

My point is that we all have strengths and weaknesses and some us aren't as good as others at spotting red flags and understanding what they mean. There is no shame associated with that but it obviously would be a good thing to work on for self preservation. To pretend that abuse sometimes just comes out of absolutely nowhere is almost certainly wrong. It might well feel like that to the victim but I imagine a professional in the field would have been able to spot signs before the victim considers the abuse started. Very few of us would have the level of insight of a professional but it is proof that we can all work on this and improve our radar and response.