To think there are always missed red flags early on in eventual abusive relationships?

[OrangeCarrot]

I hear and read women often saying that their partner was amazing until a certain point (usually post kids) when they then turned abusive or horrible etc. I just don’t buy it. I can’t help but feel that these same women seem more likely to get into repeatedly abusive or toxic relationships.

I really feel that by acknowledging that all of us can often ignore the red flags when we are in lust would help to give us the insight to avoid future abusive relationships.

@Sansan18 I'm sorry that you had that experience.

I couldn't tell from your post if you wanted to be able to acknowledge his coercive control and move away from the widow role. If you did, could you identify one or two people who you wanted to tell and then wait for a suitable opportunity to make a casual comment (for example you see an advert for something related to weddings or are watching a film where someone celebrated an anniversary and you can comment that "I don't think even if husband had lived that we would have celebrated our x anniversary." or "I remember being happy on my wedding day, I'm not sure how long we would have stayed together if he hadn't died"). It isn't sharing the coercive control but does share some of your position that it was not an entirely happy marriage and might give you back some control.

I knew what DH was like, early on.
I thought I could help him. I can’t…

I agree @OhBling I think very few abusers set out to be that way. Yes there are some very messed up manipulators there but I think its much more likely to arise when someone is under stress and maybe acting out on a childhood trauma. I don't have personal experience I admit.

I think society should be looking for and supporting men who are at risk of being abusive. If for example a young man feels intense rage when he sees his new girlfriend talking to another man, that should be a red flag for him to get some help. There are probably personality types or life experiences that make someone more at risk. Men should be trained to spot red flags and work on them. It's usually grounded in MH issues. I'm not trying to justify or excuse this type of behaviour but it would be to everyone's benefit if it was addressed more. If men are encouraged to challenge themselves more they will be more likely to call it out more too in friends and family.

They don’t hit you on the first date. You get love bombed by your dream partner. They love you so much they can’t be apart from you. Have to come with you when you see your family and friends. The friends and family will commit some slight and suddenly be labeled as toxic. Your life slowly revolves around him and his friends and family. Once you have a child and no longer work and you can’t easily escape the abuse starts. Sometimes the red flags are the perfect relationship. If you manage to get out the abuse just gets worse. Sometimes he will meet someone else and cut off their kids, sometimes they continue the abuse using the kids.

I think some people are more vulnerable to an abusive relationship as they don’t have people around them, it makes them a target.

It can take a long time to realise you are in an abusive relationship. I remember thinking my friend should have left a horrific situation with every sort of abuse imaginable. How silly she was not to see how bad it was while being in an abusive relationship myself. He didn’t hit me, and that is all we were told was bad.

It’s something that has been happening since society began. And hopefully by talking about it people see the warning signs earlier. It won’t stop until we stop blaming women for things men do.

I think people ignore the signs. They are there but people choose to ignore them and usually do the same for next and the next partner

Even when people tell them and warn them they ignore it and put their head in the sand

For my ex there was a sign early on before we moved in together. Nothing major but it was a sign of the childish silent treatment stance he took anytime I ever raised anything with him.

It’s not black and white though, most people aren’t 100% bad, and most people have some faults so it’s quite normal to weigh up if you can live with it, or try and talk it out with them.

My ex was so generous when I was his colleague / friend, always the one to buy the first round of drinks in. He would never let me buy a drink. Who knew he would go on to be mega tight, we argued constantly about money and even after we split he barely paid maintenance for years (has saved for kids uni though). If people immediately dumped people at the first red flag then a lot of relationships wouldn’t last long as few people are perfect.

I came from a high conflict house where shouting was absolutely normal and bad behaviour by men was minimised by my mother, so my boundaries were just all over the show.

Me, too. My very first date with XH#2, I was late. I'm often late, and was totally used to being shouted at for it, so my reaction to his rant was more like "Hope he runs out of steam soon" than "Fuck this for a date, I'm off."

He was well out of order, but within my bounds of normality. Now I have a better-built 'shark cage', I wouldn't stand for that nonsense - but I'm sure there are still things I'd let slide because everyone's imperfect. Once you've let a couple of things slide, it gets much harder to know where you draw the line.

We do see aaaall the time on here, some of us will pick up on a misogynist comment made by an OP's partner, or a small misdemeanour that doesn't fit the personality sketched by the OP, then dozens of other replies will tell us off for "man-hating" and the like. You shouldn't underestimate the antipathy - from both sexes - to women holding standards.

It's getting better, though 🙂

I have a friend who every time she uses her bank card her DH gets a notification how much she's spent and where. This was set up when they set up their joint spending account. Is this a red flag? AFAIK they do not have an abusive relationship. Should the relationship turn abusive (not necessarily financially, but physically emotional etc), would this in hindsight be classed as a red flag?

For me, I would have said no way to this suggestion from the get go - but she's fine with it. That said, in my abusive relationship, the only in hindsight (pre DC) 'red flag' was being late, but 10-15 mins each time we made plans. I'm not sure this is a red flag - I've seen it discussed on here from the perspective of the perpetrator of lateness and apparently there can be reasons to be late other than not valuing other's time.

Friend mentioned above would not tolerate lateness but tolerates what I see as excessive oversight of her spending and whereabouts, whereas I am the other way around.

Perhaps I'm one of these woman who can't see red flags, but seriously, I see behaviour in the men in literally all the hetrosexual couples I know behave in ways that could be described as red flags. I'm not saying they are being abused, I just think they only become the 'obvious red flags' once the abuse has started and it's too late.

This.

Some people do continuously overlook red flags. Not everybody, not by a long way. Some men really are bait and switch and pathologically good at hiding their dark side at first.

Others who don't completely mask it can get away with it by preying on those who are more likely to put up with poor behaviour due to what they've seen growing up.

I don't know about women repeatedly getting into abusive relationships. But I do agree that the signs are usually there from the start.

@Garlicwest Yes agreed. My lovely young 23 year old nanny is currently in relationship with a man who I can see red flags all over - but who she is contorting herself to make it work with. Because “he’s just insecure” “he’s sensitive” “her previous boyfriend was so much worse”, “he loves me so much”, she flirted with someone else (after he dumped her when she rightly suspect he was lying about something) and now she is the cheater… It’s really awful to watch it play out. And this is a young well educated girl from a loving and stable home.

I think my shark cage is pretty impenetrable now, touch wood. I protect my boundaries so fiercely that my now DP can get a pretty solid grilling sometimes but he loves me and understands why that is and I’m never met with anything other than empathy and love. As it should be! Only took me quarter of a century to figure that out.

I don't disagree that before full blown abuse there's warning signs but also disagree that it's that simple

My exH was the most wonderful husband for years before the abuse happened and it was stress, MH issues and a drinking problem from stress along with new responsibilities like fatherhood and a significant bereavement that created the man who became abusive vs the man who I had married and he's still an asshole to me sometimes but he's managed to stay steady in a relationship for the last 7 years with another woman who hasn't reported being on the end of any abuse 🤷‍♀️

I went on dates with a dude who was good with his stories and reasoning away red flags for a moment but who most obviously thinks abuse is just normal in any relationship and tried gaslighting me that it's not unusual once in a while to have the police called during an argument- one was very obviously dumb to get involved with but my exH was years of happy before it happened 🤷‍♀️

Excellent victim blaming OP. Well d

Why do we always blame women for the shit behaviour of men. Perhaps ask yourself that.

I think this nails it. I was raised by an incredibly strong single mum. She didn’t really date, because so few men met her very high standards for someone she’d allow into our lives, but she did fall very deeply in love with a guy who turned out to be already married, and she dumped him the moment she found out. No arguing, no second chances, he was done.

So that was my role model, and I grew up to date, and eventually marry, kind hearted, loving men who treated me with respect. There were two exceptions - one who tried to raise a hand to me, so I immediately dumped him and refused to have anything to do with; and one I very quickly realised was trying to manipulate me, so again got himself immediately dumped.

If I hadn’t had such a strong role model, maybe I wouldn’t have realised that either of these behaviours was unacceptable, or at least not as quickly. And thinking about it, my mum also had a great role model - my grandad adored my grandma, and never treated her with less than the utmost respect. I suspect she thought if she couldn’t find that herself, she rather stay single!

That's very sad about your nanny, @Endoftheroad12345. It must be so painful to watch. I hope, at least, she knows about Mumsnet!

my now DP can get a pretty solid grilling sometimes but he loves me and understands why that is and I’m never met with anything other than empathy and love - You know, this is lovely. And you've taught me something, so thank you!

You “just don’t buy it”? So what’s your theory about why “these same women” apparently choose to ignore the red flags?

Agree with all of this.

It's very easy to say "oh I would spot..." but the reality is very different.

Abusers tend to be very skilled manipulators. And these so called red flags are hidden well.

And pregnancy can absolutely be a trigger point. It's when the abuser is no longer the centre of their victims world, and that's a problem for them.

The analogy of the boiling frog is a good and accurate one.

And perhaps, if people were less judgmental (like the op) of the victims, it would make victims speak out rather than leaving them too embarrassed to.

I really feel that this is one of those situations whereby you have NO idea until you are in such position yourself. As much as someone can try and imagine...

FWIW I was in an abusive relationship when I was at university and have had non abusive relationships since that...now happily married to amazing man. So don't think it's true that people continue to walk into bad relationships

Men and women are responsible each for their actions and that includes keeping on having children with unsuitable partners and then moving the next unsuitable partner in to be around their children

Women don't have a get out of responsibility card just because they are female

There's a lot of family to abusers out there who need to take responsibility too, my exMIL watched it happen with her own eyes, cowered with me from him, used to hide with me from him with the baby and still blamed me for it rather than her son who she found reasons to justify everything and still to this day I've become the problem for leaving and I'm the crazy ex despite we both know we had to hide for our own safety on multiple occasions before I left

I'm a mother to a son and I know how hard it must be to accept someone you raised behaving so badly but that's surely when you do your children/family members no favours painting the victim as deserving of it and excusing it

One of my brothers treats his ex (they have a child) horrifically sometimes and he isn't an outright nasty person, he hates himself and doesn't have self control over un dealt with trauma but as his sister I'll love him and care for him but NEVER will I not support and bluntly tell his ex this IS abuse he's doing to you or tell him it's acceptable or understandable and he doesn't desperately need to get himself into therapy and recognise how not okay and warn him its perfectly reasonable if his ex decides not to give him contact to his child at this point because Ive witnessed it for exactly what it is- abusing her and in that relationship he is NOT the victim

You’re at your most vulnerable with a small child. The behaviour is then dialled up!

For clarity because I'm a bit confused about this- if someone's otherwise lovely DH likes to get notifications each time his wife spends money saying how much and where because he (quote) 'likes to know she's safe and in her usual routine', do you think she should 'take responsibility' for this 'red flag' by ending the marriage (with young DC). The fact he likes these notifications gives me the massive creeps, but she thinks it's fine. In the event he becomes abusive, do you believe she needs to take responsibility for that because she didn't end their marriage over this?

I think the biggest problem is that women don't know their worth, often because of shitty childhoods. I have a friend who has been in relationships with 3 different men who all show narcissistic tendencies (and had children with two of them). It's the type she chooses because of her upbringing.

She has zero confidence and needs to be 'rescued by a man'—that's what her mother taught her.

I was in an abusive relationship for just over a year. It would've been shorter but I was alone in a new city and needed to get my ducks in a row before I could leave. I knew he was a wrong-un because I was confident in what I deserved. I gave him a few chances because of childhood trauma, but my limits on those chances were fairly strict, so I knew I couldn't help him and deserved better.

I would not have had that confidence if I weren't brought up in a loving home. That is what I'm teaching my kids. To have the confidence to know their worth. I wish everyone could have that. Your tolerance for bullshit will be a lot lower.

Domestic abuse escalates when the perpetrator is losing control. If your friend is fine with his control, which it is, then they might get along without too many problems.

It's usually when something changes in the relationship that it ramps up eg children, promotion or her pushing back.

His control will probably grow over time but it will be a slow creep. He'll couch it as caring for her, so why would she mind?

He's responsible entirely for his behaviour and she's responsible for her boundaries.