Hoping that Greg Wallace is forgiven, rather than cancelled

[Toodaloo1567]

Just a few concerns about this whole GW thing. Caveat: I do not condone behaviour that is illegal.

1. It does kind of look like a whole bunch of privileged TV luvvies are clamouring to denounce someone with really quite humble roots. I grew up in London and am constantly paranoid about how I come across to my mainly middle class colleagues. The thing is, middle class and privileged people operate by a set of unwritten rules. It’s like a full time job in itself trying to emulate their way of interacting, lest you be called out for not being ‘nice’ enough or doing something odd to them, like forgetting to start an email with ‘Hope you are well?’. Only, they won’t let you know to your face that you’ve accidentally been too sharp or direct, or maybe that your joke wasn’t woke enough - no, that stuff just goes straight to HR.
2. The equality act 2010 makes it the employer’s responsibility to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace. Why wasn’t all this lewd stuff dealt with? GW said that no one had made a formal complaint. Again, it makes me wonder whether the middle class luvvies just didn’t want to call things out at the time because it’s ‘beneath’ them to even consider doing something about it.
3. Even though he’s apologised, the public doesn’t think that’s good enough. It’s like only perfect people get to keep their careers. Woe betide you if you said something crass on twitter 10 years ago, or got caught speeding or something.

Of course, lots of you would want to shout me down over this, but you know what? We’re all mums here and many of us have sons. Boys and young men do and say crass things. GW hasn’t raped or systematically abused anyone. It doesn’t make what’s happened right, but I also don’t think it’s right that swarms of pitch-fork waving strangers get to play judge, jury and executioner. I’m a big fan of forgiveness. Am I the only one?

I know, right? And it's a witch-hunt too🤦🤦🤦

He’s gross but it’s these big institutions creating a culture where this behaviour is acceptable that are the real problem.

@Bex5490 GW is responsible for his own behaviour, the organisation is responsible for not disciplining him and others exhibiting/enabling this behaviour.

There are a number of posters on this thread who think what he has done isn't too bad. Society needs to change, not just these organisations, to understand this behaviour is not acceptable

No it isn’t. It’s men like Wallace who are the problem. That kind of behaviour isn’t acceptable anywhere.

To be honest I think both things are true.
Men behaving like that are a problem
Large organisations and institutions overlooking, excusing or minimising that behaviour, having investigations that don't change anything, and enabling it to go on, are also a problem
Both issues need to be addressed (imo)

“We’re all mums here and many of us have sons. Boys and young men do and say crass things. GW hasn’t raped or systematically abused anyone. It doesn’t make what’s happened right, but I also don’t think it’s right that swarms of pitch-fork waving strangers get to play judge, jury and executioner”

But you do seem exceptionally relaxed about what Boys and Young Men do?
Here’s the thing: in the situations where YOUR boy or young, heck even old, man says or does something that is crass, YOU should, as a wife and mother, or even sister, be calling them out on it. Every. Time. Explaining why it’s wrong, and how it makes you, a woman, feel, and how society is changing, and how these underlying thoughts that make them do or say crass things to or about women need to be faced, acknowledged, apologised for and deleted from their psyche.

Too many women “allow” crassness from their DP, DH and DS’s - so there is no recognition by these boys and men that they WILL get caught out at some point if they don’t change their ways…

Only on the crassness point, not anything to do with the inappropriate touching or showing himself.

What do we do about women who either are that crass or aren’t bothered by it?

For example, I saw a few pages back a comment about “difference between jelly and jam” joke and I laughed. I’d have laughed in person. Somebody talking about their sex life wouldn’t be an issue either, the women I work with do that.

I’m not looking to get into an argument, and there are allegations around physical contact etc that are obviously very different, but is the idea that women who have that humour or conversation should also wipe their psyche? Like unknowing victims or something?

@SleeplessInWherever if you had someone in your team who felt uncomfortable with that chat, would you stop it when they are around? If you had someone you didn't know come over to talk to your team, would you talk about your sex life or similar conversations?

We have had people not interested in that line of conversation before, and they’ve just not gotten involved in it.

It’s not all that is spoken about, but there’s definitely no qualms talking about it either.

@SleeplessInWherever so you would carry on with conversations that aren't appropriate for your workplace if someone was uncomfortable with it?

@Fizbosshoes and @crumblingschools .

I agree with both of you. Yes GW is responsible for his own behaviour and yes we definitely need a culture shift.

But I listened to Vanessa feltz talking about the way that the presenter or ‘star’ of a show really dictates the culture. I’m thinking Jeremy Kyle, Ellen Degeneres etc

These shows bring in so much money that the broadcasters turn a blind eye.

I worked in an office where several girls did this and I hated it. I didn’t join in or raise it with them but I absolutely hated it , it made me squirm. It was a place of work so I didn’t think the onus was on me to ask them to keep it professional. There are employment laws in place for this reason. I think if somebody is sitting there quietly, doesn’t mean it’s not creating a hostile/ uncomfortable work environment for them.
Hope that makes sense 🤦‍♀️

Who’s deciding what’s appropriate?

The team do think it’s appropriate to have those conversations, because they do have them.

Yeah it does, absolutely.

The conversation in our office can go beyond risqué, and to be honest as long as work is happening I’ve never been bothered by the content of conversations.

I guess what I was getting at is that aside from telling men that their crass conversations/comments aren’t okay, what do we do with women who share that humour - tell them they’re wrong too?

If yes, then okay - just was curious if all were wrong to discuss those things, or if it was a chauvinistic thing!

I am assuming someone could go to HR if they felt conversations about sex life and risqué conversations were not appropriate

Yeah, that’s an option that’s available. They could come to me and tell me too.

Nobody ever has, but I also acknowledge some people wouldn’t.

Is the cultural shift people are looking for that those conversations are removed entirely?

And why would they do that? HR don't GAF. They will support the line manager in dealing with the issue. They don't manage the staff - that's why managers are called 'managers'!!

FWIW I don't think conversations of that type have any place in a work environment.

@SleeplessInWherever I don't think they are appropriate for a workplace. Are you a more senior member of the team?

I suppose when we think of the example of Kirstie Allsopp saying that GW had talked to her about his sex life, would she have felt comfortable with a female presenter who she just happened to be working with that day, so not a colleague she was best mates with, mentioning her sex life as they walked onto the set or wherever they were. She might not have felt male imbalance of power but she would possibly feel uncomfortable and it wasn't an appropriate conversation to have. It certainly isn't professional.

So genuine question- if the remainder of the team you worked in were having those conversations, would the expectation be that they stopped, as you don’t think it’s appropriate?

@SleeplessInWherever I think where conversations are about sex or other risque topics, and have absolutely nothing to do with work, then yes, if someone is uncomfortable or doesn't think they are appropriate, then yes I would expect those conversations to stop. Surely, those sort of conversations are more suited to a night out with mates. If you had someone in your team that for cultural reasons such a conversation would be taboo, would you carry on?

Yeah, middle-management. I’ve got 3 offices, and I’d say 2 of them have those conversations and have had no complaints. One of them is staffed predominantly by men aged 35-45, the other by mainly women of a similar age range.

They're both equally as likely to be having those conversations, whether I’m in the office or not, and I’ve made no attempt to change that as if they’re comfortable discussing that then fair enough. I’ve never gotten involved in it, but will “allow” it to continue as my understanding was that there was no offence taking place!

Well one of these days, someone is going to be tripped up on it.

I see it regularly. It's all great craic, and everyone is laughing at the bant, and one day, someone falls out with someone else, and boy is it a different story then!

God I hope not. That sounds like tit for tat that I have literally no patience for 😂

@SleeplessInWherever what examples of GW's behaviour that have been reported do you feel were wrong and would pull up if happened in your team and what behaviours would be okay for your workplace?

I don’t think we’d be discriminating against someone for the sake of a conversation about blow jobs, no.

But in the same vein I’d probably wait to be told they weren’t comfortable, I wouldn’t assume.