To say something now or leave it to see if I hear from the school - DD misgendered a teacher

[EvilsElsasPetSnowman]

DD is 11 in year 7. She had a non-binary teacher who she has to refer to as ‘Mx Surname’ (pronounced Mix). When she started she said “It’s obvious she’s a woman as she has boobs and a woman’s voice” but that they were told they must only refer to her as Mx. She thought it was a load of nonsense (as do I) but I told her that it’s best not to ruffle feathers and just go along with it because I don’t want her to be in trouble but I thought I’d have to keep a beady eye out for any problems.

On Friday afternoon she came back from school panicking because she accidentally called this teacher Miss when doing the register. They have to say “Here Mx” when their names are called and she said “Here Miss”. The teacher said “Really DDName, I have been your teacher for 12 weeks now, you know my pronouns!” And moved on. DD said she (DD) went bright red and felt embarrassed.

I have gone back and forth over the weekend, I’m really torn between saying something and leaving it because I don’t want DD to be a target because I’ve pissed a teacher off, or just be labelled a horrible bigot (let’s face it school will not see my POV). It’s a subject she absolutely adores as well so I don’t want her to have any backlash because she struggles with certain subjects and so lives for the few she enjoys including this one.

So Im wondering if I should email the school saying children should not be shamed for “misgendering”, this person is an adult and should be a bit more resilient and not expect children to put aide their subconscious and shirk reality, or should I wait to see if there’s any backlash before doing that? Obviously if there is I’ll defend DD to the hilt but I am thinking about getting ahead of the game as the whole thing really pisses me off.

YABU = say something now
YANBU = wait it out

Given that a subsection of criminals have become "transwomen" only in an attempt to lessen their punishment for their offences, I would imagine a study would show that they are higher risk than an average male.

Likewise the safe guarding loopholes they can exploit would make it likely offenders would be more likely to become "transwomen" than non offenders.

Just like a certain type of individual may have gravitated to the priesthood and positions in boys boarding schools.

Indeed Strawberry. Bryson was claiming to be a woman before going to court, but it seems to have been after being charged in 2019 if I remember correctly.

Certainly, Bryson claimed to be woman when Bryson enrolled in a beautician course. The teenaged and young women there complained to the school and, if I remember correctly, were told that they were transphobic. Certainly Bryson told these young women they were transphobic and manipulated them to treat Bryson as if they were a female student.

Of course, the course involved these young women being mostly naked for learning about spray tanning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64430756

We have a couple of 'Mxes' where I work (a school) and tbh I don't see the problem with it. It's a title like any other, yes a self-chosen one so not like Dr or Lady but generally people can refer to themselves by any title that isn't outlandish, I'd have thought.

I don't agree with the underlying ideology but ultimately it's none of my business if they want to be Mx. I do avoid they/themming bc it's just too cringeworthy for me to do in a natural way and I just find it so nonsensical, gramatically and factually, but fortunately it's pretty easy to avoid.

I wouldn't make it a big deal with your daughter, it's not nice that the teacher made a thing out of it but I suppose it's a bit like if the teacher had been consistently mispronouncing your DD's name, she'd find it annoying 12 weeks in. Obviously you can discuss your views on gender but the actual incident doesn't sound like a major one.

Has anyone ever posted the evidence to support that in general male people who claim to be female (at any stage of transition) have the same risk of committing sex crimes as female people or a lower risk profile?

Or do we still have posters claiming that some male people have this lower risk without any evidence at all?

It's not like any other, is it? It's made up, it's hard to say, it doesn't mean much of anything

And no, people can't make up any title they choose and impose it on others.

I think the point they try to make is that a suggestion that this should even be discussed is transphobic.

We’re back at ‘no debate’ which is an extremely convenient position to take when you know that what you are arguing in favour of is giving male people unfettered access to females in vulnerable places which should be single sex.

Of course there is no evidence that males who identify as trans don’t commit crimes at normal male pattern rates. If there was evidence they wouldn’t need to try to stop women discussing it

It's an access and safe guarding issue.

Offenders gaining access to safe spaces due to gender Identity, superceding biological sex.

There are crimes and victims of crimes that simply would not happen if those offenders had not exploited gender ideology to access places and people whom they would not otherwise have access to.
(Like the rapes they've committed in women's prisons).

You - very conveniently indeed - ignore all that.

The thing is, I am old enough for this to have been said of Ms. For people to say there was no need for a marital-status- neutral title. That it was made up wimmins’-libbers and lesbians. That nobody knew how to say it.

Ms and Mx now both routinely appear on the drop-down ‘title’ box of any number of websites. I use them more regularly when addressing others than ‘Rear Admiral’, or ‘Wing Commander’, both of which are occasionally on similar drop down lists.

All titles are ultimately ‘made up’ - there us no hierarchy that says ‘Miss is more real than Ms which is more real than Mx’ or ‘Mr is more real than Sir which is less real than Revd’. All are social language labels.

One wonders how Tandora would feel if her (?) daughter were one of those young women.

Forced to be in company with and expose themselves to a biological man who (unsurprisingly) transpired to be a serial rapist....and dismissed when they tried to stand up for themselves.

How would you feel for your daughter in that class, Tandora?

How would you feel if your vulnerable daughter was raped in prison by a "transwoman"?

These happened.

The prison rapes happened multiple times

A woman was raped as a patient in a hospital and told there were no men on the ward when she was there; there was a man. But he did not identify as a man.

How would you feel if you or your daughter were raped as a vulnerable patient in hospital and then told repeatedly that there was no man there when trying to report it?

Note that my position on what people choose to call themselves socially and in the workplace should not be extrapolated to my position on safe spaces. A person who urinates through a penis should use either a single toilet for use by either sex or the male toilets, and similar rules should apply to institutions and services such as hospitals, prisons and changing rooms.

But if they would prefer me to call them Mx Sam(antha) Jones not Mr Sam(uel) Jones in a formal work or social situation in a public space, I would find it politer to follow their preference rather than impose my iwn. Like I find it politer for pupils to use my chosen ‘teaching’ name rather than my ‘formally correct’ one, as that is my choice.

I don't why I'm even bothering.

If that poster is even female (?) I see another poster is very familiar with them across multiple threads and knows that is it is futile.

The thing is, I am old enough for this to have been said of Ms. For people to say there was no need for a marital-status- neutral title. That it was made up wimmins’-libbers and lesbians. That nobody knew how to say it.

Yes, I remember that.

But I do think there's a difference between a title that doesn't indicate marital status - MS and a title that pretends that sex difference doesn't exist - MX

If everyone used Mx or everyone used no title, we might be in a better position. I'm just glad I have several alternative titles, the 2 I've earned don't indicate sex (the one I was born with does but hey ho, I hardly use it ).

Tell the school that this teacher had no right to shame your child for forgetting about the Mx. Your child needs an apology. Does this teacher call you and your child by your pronouns? If she just uses first names do add in your pronoun and that of your child.

I think there are situations where not having to declare your gender through your title is of genuine advantage - I know there are circumstances on which I am treated much more seriously if I use my neutral ‘formal’ title, simply because I could be a man.

So I would suggest that rather than denigrating and fearing those who call themselves Mx, we should celebrate and embrace the option of a genuine gender-and-marital-status-free option for all, by encouraging as many people as possible to use it. Particularly in schools, as a replacement for the genuinely dreadful ‘Miss’ as a lower-status and downright derogatory alternative to ‘Sir’.

@cantkeepawayforever in that context Mx isn't a huge issue. Though the rather sneery way she spoke to DD is.

However the teacher has clearly communicated that she is nonbinary (what ever that is) herself. As the OPs dd's describes her as non binary.

That's the issue.

What is she? What does it mean? No one has ever described it in any way that doesn't tap into regressive gender stereotypes.

I've just got to come back to this little nugget from one of Tandora's posts

For example, “sex”, which you are so attached to- it’s only recently that medical technologies enabled us to measure important facets of sex- eg chromosomes. That doesn’t mean they didn’t exist, we just didn’t have the technology to observe them.

Well knock me down with a feather, sex is now so complicated that we can't know what would happen if 50 trans women and 50 men were marooned on a desert Island for 100 years.

According to Tandora we might find something other than a pile of bones?

Oh, wait.

Does it matter? Is she a really, really good teacher of her subject? Does she proselytise her views on gender, or simply state her personal position?

One of my teachers was a (female) pipe smoking extreme Catholic anti-abortionist. Did this affect her teaching? No. Did she force us to smoke, go to Mass or picket hospitals? No, and nor did she talk to us about her views or make us follow them.

I do not think a teacher should be prevented from ‘being’ something outwith the ‘norm’, as long as it dies not affect their teaching and as long as they are not trying to ‘convert’ or ‘push their views onto’ others.

Further on "trans people are no threat to women and children";

A prominent LGBTQ activist and "trans woman" was prosecuted for the rape of two underage boys in the US.

Note what their aunt had to say about everyone's perception of this trans "woman" who raped them;

The aunt of the two young boys opened up after what court documents allege was repeated sexual abuse by a person her nephews knew* as "Aunt Kendall".
"She's a family friend who has been around since they were born," she said. "You had this aunt stature in their life and they’re thinking I don't wanna tell an adult because I don't want something bad to happen to Aunt Kendall."

You're going to argue that an uncle could easily have occupied such a position of trust too, but I strongly disagree. Part of the reason for the trust and complacency and subsequent access was his identification (and the acceptance of his identification) as a woman.

Women are responsible for a minute proportion of sex crimes and child sex abuse. People's per options and subsequent safe guarding inevitable reflects that.

He could also not have raped them, in the common definition of the word rape, if he hasn't been a man with a penis.

I can find cases like this all day

Cases where women and children who became victims of crimes would have been much less likely (or totally unlikely in the case of women's prisons) to have suffered those if there hadn't been a biological man in contact with them under the guise of female gender identity.

Gender ideology is a safe guarding issue.

Denial and whataboutery doesn't change that.

But I do think there's a difference between a title that doesn't indicate marital status - MS and a title that pretends that sex difference doesn't exist - MX

Exactly.

And it looks like it was a written use thing, to avoid discrimination etc on forms.

I do not think a teacher should be prevented from ‘being’ something outwith the ‘norm’, as long as it dies not affect their teaching and as long as they are not trying to ‘convert’ or ‘push their views onto’ others.

I agree, but this teacher IS trying to push their views onto others.

It is quite possible for the teacher to take her register without the child needing to affirm her by using the word Mix. The child could respond to their name being called with a simple 'here'.

Is that pushing views, or simply asking to be called one’s preferred name? I correct (kindly) children who call me ‘Miss’ - it’s neither my correct name nor my preferred name. I’m not trying to push my ideology in asking them to call me ‘Mrs’.

Insisting that a child use particular pronouns and shaming them when they don't is what I would categorise as proselytising. You might have a different stance on it.

However, OP has already said that it does affect that teacher's ability to teach. OP has stated that her DD has been affected by this and is stressed about it in class. I would expect that other students will have seen this and will be experiencing stress, however low grade, while in that teacher's presence.

This is true. But I actually think if someone prefers to use a non-gendered title, that's an acceptable choice. Titles like doctor are inherently sex-neutral and subconsciously perhaps that does put things on a more equal footing. There is obviously more baggage around the Mx thing, but you don't have to buy into any of that.

However, OP has already said that it does affect that teacher's ability to teach.

I think that is a stretch. OP’s child was feeling anxious because they had made a mistake and had been corrected. That is a perfectly normal low-level feeling, hopefully completely dispelled in the next lesson when there was no further mention of it. To assume that every child is more stressed in a good teacher’s class purely because they have a preferred honorific of ‘Mx’ is definitely reaching.

Is my ability to teach affected because I correct children who call me ‘Miss’ - no, after the momentary embarrassment that we can all relate to when we confidently address Jane as Julie and are corrected.