to say no more DC - occasional verbal abuse from DH

[climbelon]

DH and I have 1 DS, age 2. There have been around 10 instances of verbal abuse since DS was born. (Thank you to a poster on a thread a few days ago who linked to a free PDF of Why Does He Do That - I am less than halfway through and already it has been very enlightening.)

There is no physical violence and I do not feel afraid or like I am walking on eggshells.

DH agreed (my idea) would pursue counselling after the last instance. The conversation in which this was agreed felt like a step forward to change. He had various reasons not to pursue free avenues and was too overwhelmed with choice of private practitioners to choose.
I told my friend that he was going to try counselling (not about the abuse). He was upset I shared this and as a result said he will no longer go to counselling. I waited it out as he often says things he doesn't mean when he's angry. Nothing further was mentioned.

A few weeks later I came to the conclusion that we should not have another child while I don't know that this abuse won't continue and/or escalate over time. While I love the idea of DS having a sibling, and I have leaned on my own siblings for support and validation managing the relationship with our abusive DM, it does not feel fair to have another DC, on me or the potential DC, and I guess would make it harder to leave if it comes to this.

The evening of this realisation, DH could see something was wrong. I told him I was upset he wasn't pursuing counselling and that it doesn't feel he is taking how he has spoken to me seriously. He minimised it, saying it's not a big deal, it only happened 3 or 4 times when he was stressed at work. (It has been more like 10 and the first time was while he was on pat leave.)

I also said that I don't think it's a good idea to have another DC. He said he doesn't want one anyway and called me manipulative for saying I wouldn't have another DC unless he gets counselling (which is not what I said). He went to sleep in the spare room as he was 'stressed' and we haven't spoken about it since.

Outside of these incidents, DH is a wonderful husband and father and speaks to me respectfully, if critically at times. However I cannot overlook the 0.1% of the time he is verbally abusive, nor his minimisation or 'are you STILL upset' when I'm not over it.

AIBU to rule out more children?

I’m glad you suggested counselling to him, but I think you need some too. You mention an abusive dm. I can see why you’re still with your h as your boundaries are all skewed as you’re used to being treated in that way.
I agree with the other posters about him not being a good father or husband, he’s not good enough.

You said earlier that you see the swearing as the tip of the iceberg: I wonder if you meant by that that there are other concerning behaviours, for example manipulation (and lack of concern for how you're feeling?), but after the long talk you were agreeing with him that it's less than 1%, ie you'd gone back to his view that it's just swearing.

I remember these types of arguments from the end of my marriage to a likely narcissist ten or more years ago. It's an utter head melt. What struck me about some of what you said he said is how cold and impersonal it comes across. Like he's not used to someone who doesn't react so gets nastier. Honestly, he sounds like an AI bot with no morals programmed in! Like he's thinking, "hmm this is an interesting response what can I do with this?" rather than "The person I love most in the world is upset, how can I rephrase what I said? Why did I even say that?" like any actual full human.

Does he tend to believe he's right all the time? He comes across that way. You ask for him to leave and give you space but no, he thinks it would be better to talk it out right now today. Well of course he does. Once he agrees to leave the house, it's harder to get into your head! You ask him to go to counselling but no, he thinks he knows everything a counsellor does anyway so he'll just do some breathing exercises when it makes him feel good to do so. And then tell you how hard he's working to improve the marriage.

Do you feel like an equal partner in this relationship?

I think it is very important that you log his threats that you would never see your child or him again and his self harm threats.

These are huge markers in the most serious of domestic abuse.

It is what highly controlling abusive men do.
It is coercive control which is a crime.

Please log it with 101 and get their advice.
You and your child are in danger and being talked down puts you at terrible risk.

By logging it with your GP, Women's aid, 101, when you eventually divorce him.......which I have no doubt you will hopefully get the chance to do, you will have proof of his abuse and a paper trail to prevent 50/50.

Abusive men love to threaten 50/50.

Do not pay that money over.
That is your freedom money.
He knows it too.

OP, I’m so sorry you’re in this position. It sounds very similar to my own, except I’m further down the road than you. Please DM me if you’d like to talk. This situation won’t get better, and I hope you and your wee boy can get out x

He is lying to you. The next fight you will have will be him having done nothing and then claiming that you are manipulating him by being upset.

He will also press you for the mortgage money so that you “show your commitment”.

Finally he will start setting things up so that you are less connected to the child; from not getting involved to getting involved so he can manipulate them too

Hv has logged with sg. Thank you.

Yes re being right all the time. He's counselling himself in his head, what's wrong with that.

I'm sorry to say you were all right. This morning I should no longer have been upset, I'm making a big deal out of something that isn't, I can't be upset forever and need to forgive and let him prove he has changed. Oh and I am point scoring like I always do. Followed by links to articles about dad pnd accompanied by 'Not an excuse but....'

I do feel like an equal in the relationship. However like a pp said, it's possible I'm conditioned to certain treatment that I wouldn't recognise it being unhealthy.

I want to slip back to normal good times. Have put in place external accountability now. Thank you all again. I would not have done this without this thread.

Don't think I will be posting again in case he is reading as he knows I read mumsnet. Cannot thank you all enough.

Good luck, OP. I think you're doing really well. I agree with a pp that he's probably a covert narcissist and they're so hard even to spot, never mind deal with. They target women with your (our) sort of family history because they think they can dominate without anyone even noticing they want to. Your boundaries have been better than you may have thought, but stay strong. PM if you need support but want to stay under the radar. x

Ha ha or not. Factual stuff only and would appreciate comments.
He's acting like everything is normal now. Asking about my day etc

We have had a long chat tonight and (as has happened previously) in the course of a few hours I have gone from 'everything I thought I knew about him was wrong', seeing our relationship in a new light, to hope that things will be OK and improve.

I was EXACTLY the same. For three years. Manipulators can do this, you start out knowing your position is justified and reasonable, and end up apologising to them and then you ask yourself how you ended up back at square one AND in the wrong to boot.

Reader, it did not get better (sorry OP).

I could have written the same original post as you - several years ago. My husband started getting snappy and grumpier after the birth of our child. They always have an excuse though don’t they….

It doesn’t get better. I decided not to have a second child, despite absolutely longing for one. It was the right decision. It wouldn’t have been right or fair on that child, or my existing child.

Things never change back. Once they’ve crossed that line of treating you like that, they don’t go back. It just gets easier for them, and more frequent.

Give your child a home life free from unpleasantness and remove an awful role model. It will impact them.

I think that you will make the mistake I made, and stay, believing (or just hoping) that things will change. They don’t. I’m sorry x

If for 99 days your husband was loving, caring, cooked dinner, bathed the baby and listened to your worries, would it be okay if on day 100 he raped you or punched you?

Outside of these incidents he's lovely.... think and then think again.

He is tryijf to shut you down. He had a good get out over the counselling because you told your friend. He made up that your maiden a threat about another baby. He said he doesn't want more. Will it be easier if you decide to leave him as you want more kids? Anything to get you out as he won't change.

Don't let him take your baby. Too many cases of men killing their children and themselves so that the mum can't have them.

Everything has to be on his terms, doesn't it, even down to how you feel and for how long.

Documenting here for support and until I find another platform (record of events only but please tell me if this is ill advised)

H came into where I am sleeping, woke me up, ran through the finances in detail. I said are you saying we shouldn't split because it wouldn't work financially.

He carried on, said am I missing something, I said yes UC.

He has just come in as I've started typing this to ask for a hug no.
Can we just talk about our marriage for 5 minutes. Have repeated can you leave please.
Do you want me to leave for a few days. Yes. How many days.
What if I go to sisters for a few days with ds.

You get stitched up on the house is what happens if you leave. Why do you think he’s gone through all the finances now!!!

Go and see a lawyer. He is going to keep badgering you until he finds an angle he can work on. It is not normal to behave like this at all

Has only just left. Mostly, name please just talk to me. Just 10 minutes. If I go to sisters shall I tell her we're breaking up. Can I take the car. Please just talk to me.

No, this has solidified that leaving is the right decision. He is showing me who he is now. As I could only see isolated incidents before.

Can hear him crying upstairs now. Talking to someone on the phone.

What he was saying after the finances. After I responded big speech about how he's a good person, he's not a bad person, he has been reading about abusers and he doesn't fit that category. He is now doubting himself but has concluded he is a good person. Under a lot of pressure at work, I'm not making excuses. I've given all of myself to this family, maybe too much, I haven't kept up my friendships, I have noone to talk to.

I ignored and didn't say anything. DS woke up, H tried to comfort him, I fed him back to sleep.

DH now that we're up we might as well talk. I don't understand what's happened, we are so good together, it's been a hard year. Just talk to me and tell me what's going through your head. I said I'm not talking about this in the night. He continues. Eventually leaves and comes back in as above once I'm back in my room.

This is what I've said to him (if the occasional incidents were physical). He says it can't be compared.

He was saying he doesn't want kids anyway as an immature response to me saying I wouldn't have more. I will leave him on account of DA.

Sounds like he's packing, he's off the phone and I can hear drawers opening.

What a relief to read a sensible post for once! The fact that you have made up your mind not to have another child with this man, due to his behaviour, and lack of follow through with regard to counselling, is a sign that you do have good boundaries OP. Please don't play the wait and see game though. There's only one direction his behaviour is likely to take, and that is to go downhill. You know what you need to do, both for yourself, and for the child that you already have, start making plans before things get worse, don't 'wait and see'.

Well done op. I know it’s hard.

The sheer volume of men who become abusive after a baby shows that it is a calculated considered decision.

I would speak to WA about an occupation order and a non mol. Start as you mean to go on. He wont stop being abusive once you split properly, he’ll be even worse. The fact he’s threatened suicide means you have to safeguard yourself and your baby.

Waking you/stopping you from being able to go to sleep repeatedly is awful, especially when it also disturbs your DS. Hope you're OK, OP.