to say no more DC - occasional verbal abuse from DH

[climbelon]

DH and I have 1 DS, age 2. There have been around 10 instances of verbal abuse since DS was born. (Thank you to a poster on a thread a few days ago who linked to a free PDF of Why Does He Do That - I am less than halfway through and already it has been very enlightening.)

There is no physical violence and I do not feel afraid or like I am walking on eggshells.

DH agreed (my idea) would pursue counselling after the last instance. The conversation in which this was agreed felt like a step forward to change. He had various reasons not to pursue free avenues and was too overwhelmed with choice of private practitioners to choose.
I told my friend that he was going to try counselling (not about the abuse). He was upset I shared this and as a result said he will no longer go to counselling. I waited it out as he often says things he doesn't mean when he's angry. Nothing further was mentioned.

A few weeks later I came to the conclusion that we should not have another child while I don't know that this abuse won't continue and/or escalate over time. While I love the idea of DS having a sibling, and I have leaned on my own siblings for support and validation managing the relationship with our abusive DM, it does not feel fair to have another DC, on me or the potential DC, and I guess would make it harder to leave if it comes to this.

The evening of this realisation, DH could see something was wrong. I told him I was upset he wasn't pursuing counselling and that it doesn't feel he is taking how he has spoken to me seriously. He minimised it, saying it's not a big deal, it only happened 3 or 4 times when he was stressed at work. (It has been more like 10 and the first time was while he was on pat leave.)

I also said that I don't think it's a good idea to have another DC. He said he doesn't want one anyway and called me manipulative for saying I wouldn't have another DC unless he gets counselling (which is not what I said). He went to sleep in the spare room as he was 'stressed' and we haven't spoken about it since.

Outside of these incidents, DH is a wonderful husband and father and speaks to me respectfully, if critically at times. However I cannot overlook the 0.1% of the time he is verbally abusive, nor his minimisation or 'are you STILL upset' when I'm not over it.

AIBU to rule out more children?

You do.

Please realise that what he is doing is a choice. Change is unlikely

OP, the reality of you being serious has forced him to back track.
That's all this is.

My advice would be to move forward.
Take his offer of the house and tell him that him moving out is a good idea to give you all space to think.

I do not think he will change.
I think space is a good idea.

His go to was to threaten you with losing your child, possibly for ever.
Don't make the huge mistake of forgetting that.

Its a massive red flag that his mind would go to such a threat.
Not normal at all.

The only type of man that does that is the very worst type of abuser.

I'm so sorry for you, but you need to take that very seriously.

Don't become a statistic.
Contact 101 and Women's aid for professional advice.

They are the experts who deal with scum like him all the time.

We are here for you.

You have given him the opportunity to show he can change though, in the form of counselling, which he bailed out of on the tiniest excuse.

Interesting also that he is talking (if I understood your post correctly) about having already changed, rather than acknowledging that change is still needed, so tacitly admitting that this is as good as it gets.

It's still all about turning it on to you, isn't it. He's not the problem, you're just not giving him the opportunity to show you what a good guy he is really.

You were right to stay in the spare room.

I get that telling a friend would make you feel vulnerable to criticism if you choose to stay with him, but not telling anyone makes you vulnerable to manipulation, which you know is firmly in his skillset. What about the friend you told about the counselling? Since they already know some of the background?

My husband never shouts or swears at me.
I married to make MY life better, not worse.
YANBU and don't put up with this shit.
You really don't have to.

He brought me a note in the night saying how much he loves us both, wants to be in DS life and breaks his heart the idea of not seeing him daily.

Did this note say anything that suggests he is taking responsibility for his part on this? That he would like to change and what he will do to make that happen? Or is it all "woe is me"? I'm guessing the latter.

OP - the Lundy book is excellent here so I'm glad you're reading that already. We all hate the regular yelling about narcissism but this man has all the hallmarks of a covert narcissist. The classic ability to make it YOUR fault or for you to feel you have to comfort him because he feels so bad about the things he has done. that is not the behaviour of an emotionally mature person.

He has threatened you, multiple times, directly and indirectly and I guarantee this will get worse I' afraid. do NOT stop breast feeding right now.

However, a few things you need to be prepared for next:

1 he will beg, plead, cry, threaten suicide, tell you how awfu he feels. YOu will feel sorry for him.

2 he will ramp up the verval abuse and threats. Be prepared for your phone to be blown up by endless rants about what an awful person you are.

3 Weirdly, he will do these two things almost simultaneously - so you may receive a stream of abusive messages overnight, followed in the morning, but something light and breezy about how he wants the best for you and he loves you so much.

4 He will use your DS to punish you. So if he says he will do x, he won't do it. If he was supposed to drive you somewhere, he won't turn up. If he's supposed to do bedtime, he won't do it. This would be even worse if your DC was older. He may even actively find ways to sabotage you doing any of these things - starting a fight as you're trying to get out to do something important, or causing a scene at bedtime, or taking the car/your keys/the pram so that you can't go out.

Edited to add 5 - He may escalate. Actual violence, or threat of it. Lock you/your DC in a room or break down doors if you are in a room and not allowing him in, throw/break things etc.

I was going to say it looks like you've already got one foot out of the door if you've decided, quite rightly, not to have another DC with him.

I've just seen your update to say have decided to split up. With everything you've said, it certainly sounds like the writing is on the wall for this relationship.

You stopped listening to your inner voice because you received a note from him.

He can still move out - was it going to be to his mother's / parents ?
for a period of time

to give you time and peace and quiet to think and consider

I think his letter note is very clever and he knows what he is doing, and I see that you actually nearly fell for it right away...

could he not use his voice and find the words...

remember the mortgage issue is coming up in the new year, I bet he has not forgotten that...

I wouldn't be thinking no more children, I'd be thinking how can I get my child away from this abusive man. This won't be what you want to hear, but verbal abuse is damaging and you need to protect your child from him.

I can't thank you all enough. You are giving me so much strength to stand my ground.

@Triffid1 Said it was wrong of him to swear at me and it won't happen again. The swearing is the tip of the iceberg in my view.
Thank you for the list. I will keep an eye for this. Hopefully over text so I have evidence if needed.

To everyone who said continue BF. I am picturing him saying I am using this to manipulate the situation and keep DS with me. Any suggested responses?

Yup, he gets to be the "good guy" (in his head) by acknowledging some (minor) transgression. Now you will he the bad guy for not accepting this and/or for wanting more from him.

Personally, I think you need to let go of the idea that you can reason with him and eventually he will capitulate to your point of view.

He will accuse you of manipulation because that's a thing that he does to divert your attention away from the fact that actually he is the manipulator.

You can be right about BFing, you can make the most compelling argument ever for BFing, but he will still be angry and resentful. And if it wasn't BFing it would be something else he would accuse you of. It's just a convenient stick to beat you with.

I would just say no. I'm not stopping BFing and please stop asking me to.

I might also add, if I'm so manipulative and awful why would you want to stay with me?

I agree.

This is him having remembered the morgage payment you would be making.

Do not commit another penny to this marriage.

I do say this! And you are so right in your previous post about letting go of the idea of reasoning with him. In that state bringing logic just means a different accusation/subject changed etc.

We have had a long chat tonight and (as has happened previously) in the course of a few hours I have gone from 'everything I thought I knew about him was wrong', seeing our relationship in a new light, to hope that things will be OK and improve.

Feel ashamed posting this but hey, an anonymous forum, and want to override my people pleasing tendency to do my own thing on the sly and disappear. And would welcome further comments, I can only be challenged if I'm honest.

He has said the number of times it has happened is irrelevant(hm). That if it is less than 1% of the time, which we agree it is, that surely the rest of the time is what counts. I make my comparison as always that if he was hitting me less than 1% of the time would this be OK. Of course not. He says how he treats me the 1% is wrong but he doesn't see it as abuse, as his ex did much worse, screaming, manipulating, checking his phone, turned him into a shell of himself. I do believe him about this.
He has reflected that when he speaks to me the way I am objecting to he is trying to get a reaction out of me. I don't react when he is angry and his dad did the same so he would have to hurt him to be acknowledged. He said he is still in this childhood pattern and is working to change it, using breathing and a timeout, and return to the issue when he is calm.

He brought my issues into it (as he did during our big chat after the last episode) that I need to argue better, I focus on being right and one upping. I said I am not responsible for your abuse and this should be a separate conversation. He disagreed as he feels everything is being put on him when I have things to work on too.

I feel satisfied that things are and will change, and feel he has acknowledged the severity of the way he speaks to me. He does expect to slip up occasionally and doesn't feel this should he used against him. I said I expect to be 'allowed' to be upset and not to be expected to get over it once he has.

Going to sleep in the spare room to really give myself time to reflect. And speak to my friend about it tomorrow I think. Didn't open up to anyone today but did leave a VM with local dv charity. I am just asking myself how can I be prepared to leave the relationship in the morning and happy to stay come evening. I will take some more space and not dive back in after a good chat, as is what usually happens.

Thank you if you read this but just good to write it down for my own sake!

It’s classic gaslighting and narcissistic abuse, I recognise so much- this from you stood out: I feel I need it to get worse to justify leaving.

3 years I stayed, and I continued to believe him and minimise his behaviour because he wasn’t hitting me, basically. 12 years on and I am financially a lot poorer than I would have been had I left sooner and not continued to appease him even after I left (I was afraid he would stop me having dc). Please don’t repeat my mistakes.
www.rightsofwomen.org.uk could help you too.

Be careful, keep your baby by you. Don’t trust your husband. He isn’t your friend.

You are being so manipulated. and you don't see / realise it.

I feel satisfied that things are and will change, and feel he has acknowledged the severity of the way he speaks to me.

Can I ask what has made you feel like that? Your recap to us shows him arguing with you and defending it, with no contrition or pledge to change. Did he do those things and book counselling?

OP is up against a master manipulator ☹️

You have been talked down by a highly dangerous abusive man who threatened you with never seeing your child again.

I really hope you will think more of your own and your childs safety.

This is not a good man.

Yes, I have been talked down.

To someone who asked if he has access to my savings, no. We have a joint account we each pay into for shared expenses and all savings are separate.

My reflections overnight. This doesn't just happen when I am not reacting. It has happened when I have disagreed about something and not 'listened to him' I.e. submitted to his opinion. It continues to happen when he gets a reaction from me. I cry, he calls me manipulative for crying. He told me last night in previous relationships they would both get nasty at each other and he's not used to someone who doesn't react so gets nastier.

My intentions going forward. I will talk about it with friends and professionals. Regardless of whether or not I have imminent plans to leave. This is about my needs, not his privacy. If he wants it kept private he shouldn't do it. I will restart my writing. And keep a record of events from now on. Reflect and record what I can remember of past events. Notice when he makes things about him/the family and make a decision for what I need. Continue to read and re read this thread.

@Wegovypictures
There was a pledge to change, but with the caveat that it might happen again a year down the line. I suppose comparing it to a relapse with addiction, which is part of behavioural change.

What made me feel like this.. there was an acknowledgement that he does say things he shouldn't and that are unacceptable. I keep in mind that he also said he doesn't see it as abuse. And that I have told him what I need from him making it easy for him to say what I need to hear.

Good luck OP, it sounds like he has recognised the pattern of previous abuse and how that impacts him in your relationship- if he’s serious about changing that he would seek counselling. I don’t think he will but I think it is more than reasonable for you to explain that if you are to have a healthy relationship together moving forward, and act as good role models for dc that he does this.
keep writing down what he does, I doubt it’s only 1% of the time, more likely your walking on egg shells for a lot more of the time in order to limit the amount of time you have to challenge him. Find someone who can listen and support you.

Looking up the definition of contrition, no new show of guilt/remorse, no. He says he knows what he has said is wrong and he shouldn't be saying it.

Re the eggshells- possibly. I intend to notice when I put his opinion first and stop, and see if the behaviour increases. And as you say find someone who I can talk to on an ongoing basis. Tell HV.

Re counselling. I would love for him to go and think it would be beneficial based on what he's said. However I think someone has to want to go, otherwise they will not engage with the process. He says he can do the work himself and has been since the talk after the suicide threat. I am going to go for counselling myself.

Well done for taking the initiative to get counselling- hopefully that will help you and will definitely give you the opportunity to have someone to talk to and process with. Be very aware of his reaction to you seeking this support as it might well not be positive… take care and look after yourself!