For not wanting our friend couple to bring baby over to our house?

[Samatha09]

Hello dear people, my good friend (lets call her Ava) had her first baby for 11 months ago. A sweet baby girl. Me and my partner used to invite ava and her partner over for dinner and game nights, movie nights and vica versa (before baby). Now we have mostly gone at their home, my and my partner prefer that. Also they have everything the baby needs at their home, changing table, dining chair, toys ect. We also don’t have a childproof home. Decorations at floor and that. Since i know they let baby crawl around to explore.

Don’t want baby to ruin our stuff like get spit up or for the baby to eat or choke on something. I kinda feel like they getting disapointed on us, but she also implies that it won’t be easy to play board games or watch a movie with baby around. So this may sound very asshole like but me and my partner don’t see the point of inviting them over if its all gonna be centred about the baby. Also i said to my friend that we don’t always need to have dinner at her home whenever we come over. We don’t expect dinner tbh.We also bring with us some snacks and sodas over.

Also i think its easier for them than having to bring tons of stuff over for the baby

The OP is not happy to socialise in their home with her friends because they have a small child. She obviously can do as she wants but it has nothing to do with the kind of friendship I'm talking about.

They come over for an adult free time? I think you might be a bit confused there Op?

I still don't understand your point.

OP is happy to socialise with her friend.

Just not in her house.

Her house isn't baby proofed.

Her friends is.

OP is suggesting they meet at their friends house instead.

Where is it baby proofed.

Why the big drama?

Totally agree.

I value friends who respect my home and DON'T expect to alter or damage it as a test of our relationship.

People who choose to have children need to accept the lifestyle changes that accompany parenthood. Not expect everyone else to adapt.

This reminds me of my Dad's tale of taking me to a friend's house when I was a baby. It was in the days of Terry Towelling nappies and for some odd reason my parents decided my arse needed airing at the friend's house. I laid a log on their cream carpet. Apparently, the friendship dwindled somewhat after that...

'I can’t believe how people commenting in this post think its okay for their kid to ruin other peoples stuff. Why should childfree people have to acommodate when they don’t have small children?'

Childfree here too, and I couldn't agree more. The level of sneering and nastiness about OP being a 'shit friend' and being 'precious' about her home is so unpleasant, but a great illustration of how entitled some parents are

Absolutely this, it's just not ok.

Tolerance and acceptance works both ways in a friendship. When some of my friends didn't have kids, I accepted their homes were not safe places for me to take DC when they were little. We met at other places, or they came over to mine. DS2 in particular was a live wire, he has ADHD. I would never have risked it.

The same applies now. If my friend with a baby demanded I baby proof beyond basic tidying and putting stuff away or their kid damaged any of my family's things and thought that was cute or funny, that would be completely unacceptable.

It might be a bit stuffy to be so concerned about your things that you won't allow anyone to bring your children ever, but it's also beyond selfish and entitled to think you should be allowed to go anywhere and let your kids run amok and damage things because "kids being kids". I see this in so many places, and can only conclude that there's an overcorrection that's happened in response to the old ways of children being seen and not heard. A lot of parents seem very determined that their children WILL be seen and heard at all costs - including when this tramples over the needs of others.

Cos she's childfree and has the temerity to not want a child wrecking her home or getting hurt in the process of wrecking her home.

But good to see that famous empathy that only parents can have in action 🙄

And you think this is a good way for the world to operate in general? I hope one day you never need help / comfort / skill of a stranger.

The only way for parents with small children to have a social life is to be able to include them in the social fabric of friendships, and take them everywhere with them.

There’s something about this that bothers me and I can’t put my finger on it.

I think it’s the fact that people on this site act like the only way that parents aren’t going to go mad with isolation is if their childfree friends agree to everything revolving around a baby they didn’t choose to have. However, if a childfree person posts saying they feel lonely because their best mate has had a baby and now no longer listens to a word they say, the childfree person is selfish and needs to wait around for a decade to get their friend back, and also new parents have more important things in their life now than their friends.

I see this more and more on MN these days - so many double standards, and as a couple of others have said, it’s all very one way.

I did everything you said, accommodated all my new parent friends, worried about them being isolated etc., baby proofed, the lot. When I had a serious health crisis and needed them, guess how many visited? 0. All too busy with “family time”. No doubt many on here would agree with that as well.

I did everything you said, accommodated all my new parent friends, worried about them being isolated etc., baby proofed, the lot. When I had a serious health crisis and needed them, guess how many visited? 0. All too busy with “family time”. No doubt many on here would agree with that as well.

Same happened to me too. I decided that my limited time off was too valuable to spend with people who didn't respect it. I'm now in my 50's so this isn't a problem, but I ended up ditching all friendships with new parents, generally at the pregnancy announcement point. My life was so much better for it afterwards. And I have a fantastic group of friends who are childfree or parents of older children who took their place 😁

I'm not child free, in fact I have a now teen DS, and also spent lots of time with nieces and nephews, but am also shocked at some of the attitudes here.
It makes so much more sense to meet a child/baby in their own child/baby proof home where possible, and where any damage to furniture or fittings will be restricted to their own home. None of my friends or family expected me to baby proof my home for them, ever, and I didn't expect others to do that (we sometimes visited/stayed at sister's/mum's house for a few days as we live 300 miles from them).

'I think it’s the fact that people on this site act like the only way that parents aren’t going to go mad with isolation is if their childfree friends agree to everything revolving around a baby they didn’t choose to have. However, if a childfree person posts saying they feel lonely because their best mate has had a baby and now no longer listens to a word they say, the childfree person is selfish and needs to wait around for a decade to get their friend back, and also new parents have more important things in their life now than their friends.
I see this more and more on MN these days - so many double standards, and as a couple of others have said, it’s all very one way.'

I think you've articulated that really well. It really is all one way traffic for some parents - they've had a baby and that's the Big Important Thing and nothing about the childfree friend's life really matters anymore. You're not allowed to have any needs or priorities of your own, and you're not even really supposed to be an equal friend anymore, just some kind of handmaiden who bows and scrapes and takes a huge amount of responsibility for their friend's comfort and wellbeing. No thanks

I've been thinking about this thread a lot. I think the difference is two ways of thinking about what "normal" is.

Perspective 1. The normal state of affairs is one of interdependence. People are usually expecting, every day, to put themselves out for those weaker or with higher needs than themselves, obviously with some caveats about not completely exhausting and depleting themselves. It tends to come with an understanding that there is probably more pain, ill health, disability, overwhelming situations in life than you'd expect, and none of us can expect to dance through untouched, so if you're in a state where your cup is pretty full, you will likely have to accommodate others.

Perspective 2. The normal state of affairs is independence. People assume that they have a right to live their life free of the encumbrances of other people's needs unless they have specifically agreed to feel responsible for them. It tends to come with a sense that the norm is being able to sort yourself out and that you don't owe additional support to others. You can choose whether you accommodate them or not.

I get quite triggered when people won't put themselves out to meet the real needs of other groups, because I believe in Perspective 1. That doesn't mean you're a pushover or that you must bow to the WANTS of other adults, but that you should be aware of how lucky you are if you get to have a life of personal agency. So in this case I'm responding with judgement to the sense that OP hasn't really internalised how much accommodation other groups might need. Nobody can make her do it, but I find it a bit immature to not notice it.

Also I'm being a bit unfair as not really responding to OP, more to others on the thread who see the baby's needs as equivalent to decor choices.

Also don't agree with bringing a baby somewhere and letting it run riot, FWIW, I've always been in the "constantly creeping round after them and unable to sit down for 3 years" camp. But I'd expect any other adult I was with to recognise this and not expect me also to have bandwidth for other stuff, and not expect me to bring my baby somewhere impossible, and not to mind when I went home or took baby somewhere else.

Crosspoated with @lottapianos , really good post. I think it kind of should be one way though? When there's a small baby which is really hard and time consuming to take care of properly? Obviously if the child free person has NEEDS and their friend, the parent of a young baby, is asked to help fulfil them, that's a reasonable ask in, the world of interdependence. And there are some really sad examples, where people have said "my friend had a baby and I needed to talk about my dad's illness/I lost my job/I got sick... and they didn't care".

That's bad, because your actual needs then should come into the list of priorities for your friend, and at that point maybe you need more than they do, or maybe more than their baby does on that particular day.

The trouble is that (SOME) people without children really do, often, have a hard time distinguishing their preferences from their needs. Because they haven't had to go through the furnace of seeing all their own preferences and priorities fundamentally downgraded in favour of the immense needs of the child.

Someone talking about "being lonely" when there's nothing stopping them heading out to evening classes or travelling or online dating...I hear it and think "Yes that's an emotion, it's not a need".

The trouble is that (SOME) people without children really do, often, have a hard time distinguishing their preferences from their needs. Because they haven't had to go through the furnace of seeing all their own preferences and priorities fundamentally downgraded in favour of the immense needs of the child.

So do some mothers though. For example refusing to leave the baby/toddler at home with dad to go out socialising because they don’t want to, when dad is perfectly capable of looking after the child.

@Mog65 I wad about to post the same suggestion. If you show that you appreciate that they’re doing all the hosting now, that’ll make a difference. Eventually, they might be able to arrange babysitting, but many ppl aren’t comfortable with this until their child is older.

When my DD was a baby, we had a relative who would show up most weekends for a visit and would obviously need lunch or dinner. We appreciated them driving over, but it would’ve been wonderful if they’d occasionally brought food! Your day is disjointed when you have a baby and someone bringing food is wonderful!

That's true @KimberleyClark. I think it's hard to know when to stop meeting the baby's needs though and start meeting your own. And the motivation if you choose to stay home with the baby seems a bit more noble; it isn't usually wanting to preserve more of your own free time and fun, is it? It's genuinely thinking the baby needs you more than your friend needs you. The friend has many ways to meet their needs. The baby has fewer. The mum has kind of none in this situation.

@Brainauchocolat I think the danger with this line of thinking is that everything the parent feels is automatically classified as a need, whereas only the saddest and most extreme feelings of the childless person are classified as needs rather than preferences.

It’s no more a need for the parent to have a social life provided for them by an army of childfree friends than it is for a childfree friend to have one meeting with their parent friend that isn’t 100% focused on the baby.

Not every parent has sacrificed every single want to the baby and therefore everything they feel shouldn’t just be seen as coming from some higher, spiritual level when compared to the frivolous childless person who only thinks of themselves. Absolutely, childless people may have more bandwidth in many ways but I feel like your line of thinking is kinda why so many childless people feel that friendship is all one way after their mates have kids.

Or you are just talking crap

Yes! And things like the floor-to-ceiling vinyl record collection, hand-blown glass art, I'd have to "move them out of the way" - that is, completely rearrange my own home. It's not as if we couldn't meet anywhere else: their houses, a café, the common; it's that they fully expected everyone else to radically change their own lives for them.

I'm not averse to kids, though some people are and that's also valid. But as an adult, I choose to live in a home designed for adults. It's astonishing how many parents view this as an insult to parenthood!

New parents often struggle to balance their old childfree lives with the weight of their responsibility for their child. It’s an overwhelming feeling when you hold a tiny new human and realize that you alone (and hopefully your partner) are primarily responsible for their well-being. From now on, everything that you say or do must have their wellbeing in mind. If you’re not prepared to do this for around 20 years, you have no business being a parent tbh. It gets far easier as they become more independent, but the first couple of years are very intense.

So if your friend needs to chat about a problem, but your baby needs feeding or changing, you have to put your child’s needs first. Otherwise you’d be a shit parent!

I now have teenagers and I have far more freedom as they can function fairly independently.

But as an adult, I choose to live in a home designed for adults. It's astonishing how many parents view this as an insult to parenthood!

This. When my things ended up damaged despite what I thought was decent baby proofing, I’d inevitably get “well, why did you buy it from X store? In ikea it’s £12.”

Because my home isn’t designed around small people who tend to break things, so I don’t need to buy everything from Ikea!

(No shame to ikea - they have some great pieces!)