Asking fathers permission to propose

[janfebmar87]

Inspired by another thread but not a thread about a thread.

I really feel this is out dated and perpetuates the narrative that women are the possession of men

If we ever want true equality then we need to put "traditions" like this to bed.

They weren’t checking out the suitor’s background, whether they could support a wife, whether they really meant to marry, etc.

The last one definitely not, as if a man got engaged but was just messing about they could be sued for breach of contract. Not that that happened very often, but there was a matter of honour. That’s what a large part of Sense and Sensibility is about.

What about the man father or either or the mothers? Do they not need to be included too?

That's an odd thing for you to "know". If I'm reading it right, this potential future partner isn't someone around at the moment? So you can't say that you know you'd be asked if you were a man.

My DDs are too young for this, but when my neice got married recently her husband had asked both of her parents for their permission before proposing. I think it's nice but I agree with PPs that the spirit of it is asking for their blessing rather than their permission. If they had said no I think he would still have proposed, but it would have been a clear message of disapproval.

I asked my DH to ask my dad (20 years ago) as I thought my dad would like the tradition. As it was he just said "What does
SharpOpalNewt think?"

Really!
So are women still asked these days if they want to include it or not!
I had no idea
I think asking a women is very controlling, I’m shocked!

I don’t recall this coming up when I got married…..maybe they saw me coming and thought better of it. 🤣

Yes, I don’t understand JustinThyme’s position - there seems to be a backhanded tolerance of patriarchal traditions in there. If you do want to be asked, why doesn’t that apply to a lesbian partner too? Is it only men who get to treat their partners like a commodity?

you are making a huge deal out of nothing.
It doesn’t mean that now. I would like to know the percentage of western cultured fathers in the UK who genuinely feel they have ‘possession’ of their adult daughters. Close to 0 I would expect.
It’s more about tradition for lots of couples. Just the same as wearing a white dress or holding a bouquet kr having bridesmaids. It’s about the person who is intending to propose consulting the intended family as a sign of respeft for that family. Traditionally that’s the man asking the woman’s family but I wouldn’t think it strange if a woman was to propose to as their man’s family (same for gay or lesbian couples)
My DH asked my dad and I thought that was so sweet - it took a lot of guts to speak to him as it’s a shy person and was quite young at the time.
All my sisters DH have asked, loads of friend DH’s asked as well. It’s standard amongst my friends and family. Granted this was 15 years ago but not uncommon at all.

So is it a cultural thing amongst your friends and family because I got married nearly 30 years ago and I don’t know anyone that has done this

Weird and totally inappropriate to me, anyway.

Well yes, OK, I'd argue how far can you really divorce a tradition from its origins, but for the sake of argument I'll grant you no commercial/financial or ownership connotations to this permission asking and granting.

I'd still question why, if it's purely an emotional thing and is purely about families being joined and a promise of love and care being made, is the tradition only about a man asking another man for permission? If we're being modern and enlightened, I have heard of instances where a man asks both his wife-to-be's parents, the father and the mother, but I've never heard of a woman going and asking a man's parents for permission to marry their son, or even in a lesbian couple of either woman asking the other woman's parents for permission, or in a gay couple of either man asking the other man's parents. Why is it solely that a man needs to ask another man if he is allowed to love and take care of a woman? Can men not just do that without a formal handshake on the deal? Do the women not also need to love and take care of their families, or is it just assumed that they'd do that without asking/agreeing first? Are the respective mothers and daughters not part of these families too and do they not get a say, after all presumably the bride-to-be is also her mother's little girl and little princess (ick), her mother probably did at least as much if not more caring for her in her childhood than her father did and feels some form of ongoing affection for her, does she not get at least an equal say with the father of who now assumes that responsibility of caring for her? And what about the groom's mother, doesn't she get to give her blessing/permission as to who gets the privilege of washing her little prince's pants and cooking his dinner, or is the little prince trusted to pick his own wife unlike the inept princess who needs her dad to look out for her and get rid of any unsuitable suitors? It just all still reeks of misogynistic and paternalistic undercurrents to me...

I would have been furious if my husband asked my Dad, mostly because my mum is the sort of person that lords it over you or brags that she knew something first. I couldn't bear the smugness.

People often refer to Jane Austen in discussing traditions like this- just want to point out 2 things about Austen books:

None of the reasonable men in Austen's books asks for permission to propose. (Mr Collins, that paradigm of absurdity, is an exception.)

BOTH man and woman, (if they are not wayward and the parents are not bullies) need consent to actually marry, from whatever parents (of whichever sex) are still alive. The only situation in any of the books where consent is withheld is to the MAN (Henry Tilney in Northanger Abbey) and the young couple have to wait till HIS father is talked around to saying an unenthusiastic yes.

DD,s bf asked DH for his blessing. He wanted to surprise her and asked us to say nothing
After that silence. ,6 months have passed They are still together and seem very happy. Maybe he changed his mind. Maybe she said no. None of our business but just idly curious.@

For me my wedding was traditional. But the marriage is modern. As my parents' was. My dad did his share of housework and childcare and he was born in 1937. That's more important to me.

I’m Justin, and I’m disputing the PP (@MumOfOneAllAlone ) position that a male should ask her “because he’d ask a man” but a female partner shouldn’t ask her.

No tolerance of patriarchal traditions whatsoever. It’s outdated nonsense.

DH sort of asked my parents the permission to marry me but it’s 30 years ago and he did it because I asked him knowing that they would really like this. But of course it’s after we discussed everything

The whole thing about asking permission is that it implies the right to say no. My grandfather certainly believed he had that right, and it caused a great deal of unhappiness for the whole family over many years. It’s a toxic tradition.

Oops sorry Justin, pasted the wrong username. My bad. We are in agreement!

A lot of misogyny is still romanticised, chauvinistic traditions transmuted into being seen as “loving” gestures, and signs of some kind of “respect”.

I stand by what I've said. I've dealt with men my whole life who secretly don't respect women. They'll be polite because it's expected but that's it.

Obviously that doesn't apply to all men, justin. But if you've spent time around a lot of men, you know that patriarchy just isn't going away

I'd fully expect a man to ask me for permission to marry my daughter. We're many years off thankfully, but yes, I would

My daughter isn't my property but I would be expecting that he will take care of her and protect her

It's one of those traditions that is upheld by respect more than anything. Obviously, my dd can do what she wants but I'd take a dim view of any partner that didn't want my approval of their suitability for my dd

If she was a lesbian, I'd still expect the partner to come to me for approval - but I wouldn't feel so disrespected i suppose

Think it entirely depends on the daughter and dad tbh - I wouldn’t have liked it but my sister in law did.

Well yes, quite, but also do note that Austonian permission asking was really all about money exchange rather than literal or emotional permission. So the 'refusal' from Henry Tilney's father was him saying he would disinherit/refuse Tilney financial support if he married Catherine. Edward Ferrars being refused permission to marry Lucy Steele and his defiance of that resulted in him being cut out of the family tree and out of all the money. The silly/nonsensical proposals e.g. Mr Collins as you say, but also Darcy's asking Mr Bennet, Mr Knightley having to bargain chicken-protecting duties with Mr Woodhouse etc are silly precisely because there would be no realistic or reasonable grounds for the father to turn the prospective groom down because he obviously has a lot of money, and the bride has little or no significant money that can be withheld in the case of parental disapproval. Mr Bennet even says that he gave Mr Darcy permission to marry Lizzy even when he's under the mistaken belief Darcy is a proud stuck up bully who his daughter has no liking or respect for. Hardly romantic stuff is it!

There are lots of examples in Austen of marriages going ahead without parental sanction or even in the case of active parental disapproval too, for better or worse (Robert Ferrars and Lucy, Fanny and Edmund Bertram) and Persuason is a whole book all about the stupidity of a woman trusting her parents to make better decisions for her than she can on her own behalf, so it's really not a great argument in favour of 'romantic' permission asking like in an Austen novel!

I'm not sure. I got married in 2000 and was shown a copy of the vows at the rehearsal- there didn't seem to be a choice. I scanned through quickly to check there was no "obey" so I was happy with that. This was the methodist church and I think there would have been more options in the CofE though not sure if that's still the case.

The minister who married us was quite forward thinking about these things. He said he much preferred to leave the "giving away" aspect out of the ceremony as the bride should be coming to be married of her own free will, not given. I was delighted and completely agreed!

He also asked me to please put back my veil before saying my vows as apparently that is how Leah ended up married instead of Rachel, only removing the veil and revealing herself after the ceremony. He wasn't suggesting there would be any actual attempt at impersonation, rather that it was symbolic of the bride presenting herself openly and honestly, and not "hiding" herself in any way. I liked that too (I did have the veil over my face as I came up the aisle though!)

My DH did that too, asked both of them. He did it in his usual awkward way which my parents thought was a hoot! It's something we still giggle about 20 years later.

I see myself as a feminist but I can't get worked up over this.