Asking fathers permission to propose

[janfebmar87]

Inspired by another thread but not a thread about a thread.

I really feel this is out dated and perpetuates the narrative that women are the possession of men

If we ever want true equality then we need to put "traditions" like this to bed.

you don't 'know' your friends and colleagues but do 'know' your hairdresser? okay...

My old postman's name was Mike, RM have since changed the rounds so it's a variety of different people. Odd question.

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring or neither, and if so who paid for it? Neither
b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle? No
c) Who made speeches at your wedding? Did you? Your mum? Your MIL? Your maid of honour? Or was it mainly the men? My MIL, my dad, my grandmother and a male friend
d) Did you change your name to DHs? No
e) How about your children, what name did they have? Both
f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children? Yes

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring?
Bought myself a diamond solitaire with some insurance money in my 30s
b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle?
No
c) Who made speeches at your wedding?
DH and I both said a few words
d) Did you change your name to DHs?
No
e) How about your children, what name did they have?
Double barrelled
f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children?
That wasn't available when I had my children. DH got 3 days off work from his employer

As for "I don't know anyone who"... when my brother told us he'd asked his new waife's father, I talked about it at both book group and my swimming club. It just seemed so ridiculous and old fashioned, so I raised it as a "can you believe this nonsense?" kind of topic.
Three older women (out of 12) at swimming club said their DH's had asked, the rest plus everyone at book group were "of course not" and some found it funny.

Okay well for me I'd expect to be asked. I do everything I can to make sure my daughter is safe and well and I'd expect a future partner to have that same mentality.

I'd also expect my child's partners parents to give their blessing too, I'd find it disrespectful if my daughter didn't ingratiate herself with her partners family.

As a single mum I get treated terribly - there's always some man who wants to take issue with me and my existence. Who sees a single woman and thinks 'i can take the piss here'

I would be deeply offended if a man didn't ask for my permission, and would see it as him not respecting me as the head of my little family because I'm a single mum.

It's all these little traditions that don't seem like they mean much but actually I think they still matter as they show you who someone is

Sort of like I wouldn't date a man who wouldn't open a door for me. I can open my own door but these little things matter. I'd expect my dd to tell her partner how things are and for them to respect that

i will say though that juet because a psrtner is respectful at the beginning doesn't mean they will/won't make a good life partner, will be faithful etc. It's just one of many things that matter for me.

No to most of the above, no engagement ring, no-one walked me down the aisle, no speeches at my wedding, no name change, kids have double barrelled names. We didn't do shared parental leave because it wasn't a thing back then but we did share care of the kids and housework 50:50 and DH ended up taking pretty much the same amount of time off work as me because he had 2 x extended career breaks/time not working which he used to look after the kids. This was quite unusual and raised a few eyebrows back in the 90s/early 2000s so I do feel a tiny bit smug confident I practice what I preach.

But anyway, it's not about everyone having to 100% be 'perfect' and never ever do anything which goes against feminist principles, obviously we all do things all the time which go against our moral ideals (e.g. I'm opposed to child labour and sweat shops but do I occasionally purchase items which have a strong liklihood of some enforced labour somewhere in the supply chain, yes, it's very hard not to and I just don't have the discipline or money to completely avoid). Of course someone can still be feminist and ask their dad's permission to get married and promise to obey her husband and all that other stuff if she wants, there isn't a committee which will revoke her privileges and ask her to return her badge - for me it's just about owning that choice and not dressing it up as somehow still feminist because you as a woman make it, or 'not that bad' or denying it's origins and saying it's all just lovely and cosy and no misogyny to see here because it's uncomfortable to admit just how much inherant misogyny (and racism and the rest) we all just have in us and in our society...

Its like the song Rude by Magic.

That was about asking permission from the girls Father.

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring or neither, and if so who paid for it? Only I had an engagement ring. I did buy my husband's wedding ring though and mine was "free" as it has been my grandmother's. So effectively we did buy each other a ring.
b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle? Was not given away
c) Who made speeches at your wedding? Did you? Your mum? Your MIL? Your maid of honour? Or was it mainly the men? My father, husband, best man and me, so fairly traditional but I was determined to have my say! I have also been a Best Woman and made a speech since then though.
d) Did you change your name to DHs? Nope
e) How about your children, what name did they have? Both surnames - told them they could choose to drop one when they went to secondary, they've opted to keep both so far.
f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children? With youngest, yes, equal split. Not an option when eldest was born though H took 2 weeks annual leave when i first went back to work.

Every single one of my female friends' partners did the traditional asking permission from the father thing. These are weddings and engagements taking place over the last 15 years, and as recently as 2023. When it has come up in conversation, every one of my friends has been shocked that my DH didn't do this as they find it an important tradition.. Fwiw, I told him that if he even dared consider discussing the matter with my dad then I wouldn't marry him. He agreed that the thought had never crossed his mind and DDad said later he would have laughed him out of the house, telling him to go and ask the right person.

Mind you - every other one of these friends had a church wedding whereas DH and I had a civil ceremony in a hotel so we obviously have a different view on tradition.

As for the other questions:

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring or neither, and if so who paid for it?

I had a ring, which we chose together. DH got a watch at the same time. We split the cost of both purchases evenly.

b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle?

Yes, which wasn't my original plan but he insisted and got quite upset. My DSis died young so it was a big deal for him to play this part at one of his daughters' weddings. We agreed though that he was "walking with me" and not "giving me away".

c) Who made speeches at your wedding? Did you? Your mum? Your MIL? Your maid of honour? Or was it mainly the men?

DH, Best Man (BiL) and Me. Dad was offered but didn't feel comfortable. Bridesmaid and Mum also offered and weren't keen.

d) Did you change your name to DHs?

Double-barreled.

e) How about your children, what name did they have?

We don't have children.

f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children?

As above.

That is such a creepy song.

Although the singer says he's "going to marry that girl anyway/no matter what you say" so a good example of a pointless exercise in asking the father.

I'm not sure that all this is relevant to what OP has asked because I don't think someone having an engagement ring makes their opinion on their father being asked permission any less valid tbh but anyway.

Didn't have an engagement ring.

Walked down the aisle with DH.

We had a small wedding so no bridesmaids or best man, the only speech was by my mum (slightly impromptu, we weren't going to have any, but it's quite hard to stop my mum saying what she wants). I think my dad was quite pleased no speech was expected from him - he'd have done a good job but wouldn't have enjoyed it.

Re names - DH and I both wanted the same surname as our children. DH would have been happy to change his name generally (his brother did, and so did his best friend, and it wasn't a thing DH had any negative opinion on), but my surname was his first name (so he'd have been William Williams for example) and since I'd never have changed my name to something that sounded silly I didn't expect him to. I could have kept my name and insisted the children had it as well, it wouldn't have caused any falling out, but since having the same name as my children was important to me, it felt unfair to stop DH having that as well, since it also mattered to him. We could have both changed our names to something new, but our surnames didn't have an easy combination to be made from them, and plucking a name out of thin air seemed a bit pointless.

Shared parental leave - DH would have absolutely loved this, he's a much better parent than I am and I found maternity leave to be really unenjoyable. But I worked for a company that offered 9 months full pay, and DH was the higher earner. Financially it wouldn't have made any sense at all to go down to my salary plus his statutory pay, rather than having both our full salaries. Plus I was breastfeeding. I went back to work full time after 7 months both times.

I know of two people whose husband asked the father. I personally don't like it, and would be really disappointed if my partner did that. I find it utterly bizarre that your parent/s would know before you when it's your life not theirs. I also think what would you do if a dad said no / were luke warm - do it anyway, not propose... And it's not their decision or business anyway. I've not lived with my parents for 20 years and am an independent person, I know my own mind. I also don't like the hang ups back to women being property or when they were dependent on male relatives or were unable to form their own opinions and drive their own life. There's plenty of places in the world where that's still an issue (Afghanistan being the very worst), why would we want to remember and honour that part of our history?

I'm not sure that all this is relevant to what OP has asked because I don't think someone having an engagement ring makes their opinion on their father being asked permission any less valid

I agree with this completely. Most people are not fully consistently feminist, it doesn't make their views invalid

And why ask the questions this way anyway? Why not ask those who wanted their fathers to be asked whether they opened a bank account without their dad's permission or do all the cooking since clearly they think men make all the decisions and women should conform to gender norms

Of course those would be silly questions and conforming to some sexist traditions doesn't mean you conform to all of them

Because DD had banned him from asking her until he had asked us both first for our blessing.

For me it's more like tradition and respect and sharing excitement than permission. Dh didn't do it and I was disappointed, both his brothers did for their wives and it felt like a characteristic lack of thought/effort on his part. Obviously his many other good qualities made him worth marrying! But it took the shine off a little for me and I know it would have meant a lot to my mum (fwiw my dad wasn't alive at the time of engagement, this isn't about ownership for me. Dsis gave me away at the wedding. Again it wasn't about ownership for me but it was about involving my side of the family in the ceremony in a traditional way. Also if you don't get given away you have to walk alone down the aisle. Fuck that!)

Not when DD wanted a formal faith blessing first. She has now asked her dad to marry them both in church.

I think it’s more than outdated. It’s an appalling tradition rooted in misogyny. It has no place in the 21st century. If my future DH had asked my dad’s permission, I have no doubt he’d have said it was nothing to do with him. And my dad was born in 1934, so the excuse that people from older generations expect such nonsense is far from universally true. Fortunately, my DH wouldn’t have dreamed of doing anything so ridiculous.

Mind you, I feel the same way about proposals. The very concept is revolting. IMO we should consign all these sexist traditions to the dustbin of history.

I got engaged in 1987 and my mother told me that my father was 'very upset' that my fiance hadn't asked him for permission beforehand.

I went ballistic - I told her that it was 1987, not 1887 and I wasn't my father's 'property' to dispose of. Also told her that I was the one marrying my fiance, not my father, so was the only person he needed to ask.

I'm still fucking livid every time I think about it. I told my fiance that if he had asked my father I would have turned him down. Sexist and misogynistic behaviour.

My dad had died 10 years before I met my DH. When we got engaged we just told my mum, no question of asking her permission, and I think she would have thought my DH was nuts if he had asked. Been married 34 years now.

Father would not have said no. Even if my father didn’t like the guy, he would just have been polite and said well you need to ask ‘insert my name’ because if she’s happy, I’m happy.
Its not about possesion, it’s just respect, kindness and tradition.

Exactly! All these ‘die hard feminists’ who think their way is the only way! It’s women’s right to choose after all and if they choose to want their father walk walk them down in the aisle, if they are happy for their fiance to ask their fathers ‘permission’ to marry, then that’s entirely up to them!

I would have considered it ridiculous. Luckily neither of my husband's did.

Of course it's up to them but feminism doesn't just mean 'women choosing stuff'. A choice isn't feminist just because it's a woman making it.

Lots of stuff about getting married in a traditional way is pointless.
Gardly any brides are virgins so why the white dress? We have showers and soap now so why the flowers festooned everywhere and the bouquet.
Loads of people don’t believe a jot in god or religion but still get married in church.
Loas of people still have their dad or male relative walk them down the aisle to ‘give them away’ Why? Do they own them before that then?
Most brides and grooms don’t meet on the morning of their wedding before the ceremony as it’s ’bad luck’ Utter nonsense.
And there are dozens more just with weddings alone.
People like to follow traditions. It’s not harmful or used in a posssion way now so what’s the harm.

Without these “die hard feminists”, you wouldn’t have had the choice either way, you wouldn’t have had any of the rights that you enjoy today, as a human being, as a woman. People are allowed to point out the insidious nature of a tradition where one man is giving away his property i.e the daughter, to another man. Clearly, many people don’t see this tradition in those terms as much ans it’s evolved into something else, but it doesn’t change its misogynistic provenance, and that’s what makes it for me, an outdated tradition.