Asking fathers permission to propose

[janfebmar87]

Inspired by another thread but not a thread about a thread.

I really feel this is out dated and perpetuates the narrative that women are the possession of men

If we ever want true equality then we need to put "traditions" like this to bed.

I think it's a ridiculous old fashioned idea that, as a PP said, makes it seem like a woman belongs to a male member of her family.

My SiL did ask me before he proposed to my daughter but he comes from a small island where maybe these things still matter.

Obviously that doesn't apply to all men, justin. But if you've spent time around a lot of men, you know that patriarchy just isn't going away
I'd fully expect a man to ask me for permission to marry my daughter. We're many years off thankfully, but yes, I would

I have two adult sons and they wouldn't dream of asking permission and would regard it as ridiculous. My DH didn't, and my Dad thought my brother was a weirdo for asking his future FIL.
My dad didn't ask for my grandfather's permission in 1965!

The patriarchy gets dismantled slowly by people refusing to engage with that crap; by woman not accepting 'traditions'; by raising sons who see women as having full agency.

Well said

No idea about C of E
Catholic wedding here

No rehearsal, no discussion on vows, no obey,
Think it was expected dad would ‘walk me down the aisle’, not by my dad though as he knew me too well. He didn’t. No one said anything.

My dh also stood on the traditional womens side of the church as well, I think he was making a point there as we’d spoken about it. I was more than pleased to stand on ‘the man’s side’. I could see the priests confused smile 😊

My DH and my dad just used it as an excuse to go out for dinner together. He did not ask my dad's permission to marry me they just had a lovely meal 😂

I think people don't really think about why this tradition started and what it actually meant. Or if they do then they are of the opinion that because it doesn't mean what it used to mean, it's now a good or at least a neutral thing?

So I guess the question is, is it 'good' for people to participate in rituals that have disturbing origins?

It's harmless now because permission isn't actually required, so just the ritual survives? And the ritual has become about, what? if it's showing respect to the father then that's problematic in itself and would indicate things haven't actually changed all that much. Why do you need to get even symbolic permission from a parent to make a life decision with an adult?

I'm probably overthinking it. People want to do it because they think it's nice and don't think more of it than that.

I am a typical white British woman living in SE England with generations of typical white british ancestors. If by cultural you mean big standard white Brit culture then yes. That’s me. As are all my friends and family.

“Bog standard’ not big.

If you are from the same white British culture as me I find it completely bizarre that you don’t know anyone 30 years ago who did this. Just as much boggling to me as it is to you as it was very standard amongst everyone I know

I have two sisters and both of their partners asked my parents, and know a few friends whose partners did as well. We're early 30s. I personally wouldn't like it but it's not uncommon.

To be fair in my BILs versions they asked both parents not just my dad, and it was for more of a blessing than permission. Personally still wouldn't be a fan but my sisters were fine with it and that's what's important - knowing how the person you are marrying feels, not anything else.

My DH asked my dad and I thought that was so sweet - it took a lot of guts to speak to him as it’s a shy person and was quite young at the time.

tbh doesn't really speak that well of your father...

If you want your DH to ask, or whatever combinations of agreeing to all this is, then fine.

But i will judge people who think this is desirable in this day and age.

A pp mentioned they knew of someone doing it possibly because they came from an island somewhere and maybe it was the thing on that island.
I was wondering the same as you mentioned you knew lots of people that had done this.
Hence, the ‘cultural’ question.

I find it hilarious when people say 'I don't know anyone who' in relation to a particular subject.

Have you REALLY discussed their pre-marriage arrangements with EVERY SINGLE PERSON you know? Really? You know for sure whether the partner of every single one of your colleagues, your friends, the people in your gym, your postie, your haridresser, your mechanic....asked their parents for permission before they proposed? If so you've got an odd idea of appropriate conversation topics.

As I said, I know about my sisters and 2 of my closest friends which represents about 1% of the people I 'know.' Of the other 99% it could be that every single one of their partners asked their parents for permission or none of them, I wouldn't have a clue, and it would be completely arrogant of me to make a ridiculous blanket statement of 'I don't know ANYONE,' based on a sample size of....four.

I am not from the same white British culture.
I am Irish, now living in England.

None of my Irish friends and family or English friends have done this.
I was born late 60s

it seems we are both finding the comments and experiences of others on here mind boggling

Maybe 'I don't know of anyone who...' would solve that rather overly pedantic annoyance?

That would be an instant dump from me.

Those of you whose boyfriends asked permission from your father....what would you have done if your father had said no?
What if you want to say no to the proposal? Doesn't it add a layer of weirdness?

Out of interest OP (and any others who are vehemently against the 'tradition') how do you feel about and what happened in your own wedding in relation to:

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring or neither, and if so who paid for it?
b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle?
c) Who made speeches at your wedding? Did you? Your mum? Your MIL? Your maid of honour? Or was it mainly the men?
d) Did you change your name to DHs?
e) How about your children, what name did they have?
f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children?

As above, I personally wouldn't be a huge fan of 'asking for permission' but I do find it amusing how so many people are vehemently against it but then sheepishly admit to having followed some/all of the other wedding traditions, which are at least as sexist/have same connotations of male ownership

A) no engagement ring.
B) civil ceremony so no aisle.
C) no speeches. No bridesmaids etc.
D and E we changed our surnames to a totally different one.
E) no parental leave when I gave birth.

I don't know people in my gym as much as I don't know people who pass my house. For all intents and purposes, people you list are not the "people I know". Except for my hairdresser. And yes, we did talk about her proposal. My rule of thumb is, if I don't know the person's name and/or if I have never interacted with them, they are not the person I know. What's your postie's name?

you're missing the point
If you 'don't know of anyone who has/did' you also 'don't know of anyone who hasn't/didn't'
because you DON'T KNOW, full stop.

So unless you have interrogated every single person of your acquaintance it is of no actual evidential value whatsoever because it means nothing.

If what you're actually saying is 'My DH didn't do it, and I don't think my best friend's DH did (but those are the only two people I know one way or another),' then just say that rather than ridiculously extrapolating your very limited experience to the entire population to try and back up your point by pretending that you know one way or another about what everyone else in your life did.

a) Did both of you have an engagement ring or neither, and if so who paid for it? didn't have one
b) Did your dad walk you down the aisle? Register office, nobody gave anyone away
c) Who made speeches at your wedding? Did you? Your mum? Your MIL? Your maid of honour? Or was it mainly the men? - my dad (great at speeches - he had them rolling in the aisles), my DH, and me.
d) Did you change your name to DHs? no
e) How about your children, what name did they have? they have double barrelled
f) Did you do shared parental leave when you had said children? (not in UK) the allowance at the time was 3 years per child. I had child one, and 18 months later had child 2. 18 months into child 2's parental leave, we swapped and DH took over. We have always taken time off for a sick kid according to who could accommodate it better in their schedule. Slightly skewed towards DH taking more because i was the main earner and worked furthest away

a No.
b No
c Me and dh
d Absolutely not
e Double barrelled
f Yes. We both had the same amount of time off except for the first week as I was in hospital for 4/5 days after first then twins. So I suppose technically he took one week less. He didn’t breastfeed though.😆

Extraordinary! In 2024!

also, for those "it's a harmless tradition and the rest of you are sour faced harpies"*

how many of you
have your own bank accounts
worked after marriage/DCs
cook your DHs dinner every night
do all the wifework

*Possible exaggeration for comedic effect