Asking fathers permission to propose

[janfebmar87]

Inspired by another thread but not a thread about a thread.

I really feel this is out dated and perpetuates the narrative that women are the possession of men

If we ever want true equality then we need to put "traditions" like this to bed.

My DH didn't ask my Dad or step-dad and I've had thought it ridiculous if he did. Who are they to say who and if I can marry?

To be honest I found all of the traditions around the Dad quite grating when it came to my marriage. Giving notice at the registry office and being asked what my Dad did for a living, but not asking about my Mum! I said to the registrar that I thought it was inappropriate, and that my Mum was the main parent and my Dad hardly lifted a parenting finger in his life (same for DH). He agreed that it was silly, and a lot of people with estranged fathers found it offensive. I believe it may be changing/have changed recently so the Mum is taken into consideration. Regardless, I honestly can't see what my parents professions have to do with me getting married!

Then the being given away part. During the ceremony when the registrar asks who gives this woman... I found the whole thing laughable. I wanted to say "I give this woman, me, the person who makes decisions for myself".

I really think the process of marriage needs to be un-romanticised and traditions properly evaluated. We do so many things 'just because'. But what no one really thinks about is the bloody great legal contract you are entering into, with all of it's practical and financial implications. If you were doing anything else like that, you'd have a solicitor and scrutinize the contract. But instead, entering into a marriage is overshadowed by the wedding and all common sense is quashed by the romance and celebrations of it all.

My husband didn’t and I’m glad he didn’t! The only permission he needed to marry me was my own :)

My Dad was born in 1940, so it was more for his sake than ours, as he would have appreciated the gesture.

My dad was born in 1926 and thought it was stupid. We were the only family I knew growing up who still ate goose on Michaelmas so he wasn’t without tradition, just not the ones where his daughters were treated like bit players in their own lives. It’s a weird father who needs another man to show him “respect” by disrespecting his daughter. My father was not overtly feminist but most people will draw the line somewhere.

I suppose the respect thing is basically treating the dad like an authority being the important thing, not treating the women like a person. The men are so cock a hoop about nailing the first part the second part is irrelevant. Then everyone claps.

It is a token thing and I bet if some of us mumsnetters were in Elizabeth Bennet's shoes, we would be thrilled! I am a feminist (not married or likely to be) . Dad has passed but I think it would amuse me if this happened to me as long as that is the only 'old fashioned' notion my (non existent ) husband to be had!

At some point you agreed that marriage was what you were going to do. That moment was the proposal (synonym: suggestion) of marriage and from then 9n you were engaged.

Of course. A business meeting, that went well, they shook on it, and the deal was done. Chattel exchanged hands. I am trying to find the “respect” aspect within such an entire transaction, that some people are pointing out, as a reason to ask the father.

My DH asked my Dad for permission. DH and I had already discussed marriage so although there as a (quiet) 'proposal' with a ring etc it was on the basis that we'd already agreed we were ready for that step. I had no idea that DH planned to ask my Dad for permission before he made a formal proposal. Apparently my Dad told him is had been a very long time since I needed his permission to do anything so he'd be better off asking me! DH says he only did it because he thought it was expected and didn't want to cause any upset with my parents.

My dh asked my dad over 15 years ago. I was really happy at the time. Now though I'd be a bit cringe. I'd want to know before he told my parents so that we could tell them together.

I am clearly not going to be able to convince you of this but as one of the two people there, I can guarantee that there was not at any point a question asked in the way you describe.

I think lots of traditions around weddings are weird and/or misognystic, but I think the asking permission one might just be the worst of the lot.
Having said that, I'm in my late 40s and one of my best friends' husbands asked her dad for permission (before asking her) and my SIL and sister were both walked down the aisle/given away by their fathers.
We/I got rid of nearly all the patriachal stuff I could - decided to get married as part of ongoing conversations/no proposal, no real role for my dad (who is great!), no white dress, minimal registry office service. Only thing I did do was change my name. I did this because I liked it a bit better, I wanted the same name as my (future) kids and DH was keen for me to do it (he wasn't especially keen on the whole wedding business at all, but I wanted the legal protections). If I could have my time again, I don't think I'd change my name, but it doesn't occupy much of my headspace really.

My DH asked my DF 20 odd years ago. In part, due to tradition and knowing that my very old-fashioned DF would appreciate it but also as a way of confirming that my family, a family that he would be joining, was supportive of our relationship and as happy as he was about him joining the family.

But at the end of the day, he wasn’t really asking for “permission”, it was very clearly a rhetorical question.

I did but in our pre wedding classes it was explained as that it goes both ways, that the man should never ask the woman to do anything that they wouldn't want to do.

DS also asked his FiL , I think because it was because that could go out for a beer to celebrate.

I didn’t describe a way. I simply said once you agree to marry there’s been a proposal of marriage.
The reason I’m persisting isn’t to do with you really, it’s the whole range of posters here (and on other threads about marriage) who seem to think a ‘proposal’ is a some big event, and even who agree to marry then have a ‘proposal’ and only consider themselves engaged at that point. It’s really much simpler than people try to make it.

A way of confirming that your DH would be joining your family. What about you joining DH’s family?

I proposed and didn't ask permission. (I am female).

Step-daughter's fiancee asked her dad's permission, but it was more of a courtesy thing.

I don't approve of asking permission, or of being given away. I recently told my dad that this wouldn't be happening, and he is actually heartbroken about it.. but I will not be given away by anyone. It is up to me who I marry, and do not need permission or any act of being a possession to be given away.

That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with chatting to the family about marriage, to make sure they're on board etc, as it can be difficult if you find out they're set against it. But it's a discussion, and should happen on BOTH sides, not just the bride's.

@ChestnutGrove
They stopped using ‘obey’ in the wedding vows after the women’s suffrage.
Sometime around the late 1920s

Well yes, he probably had the same conversation with his own parents about whether they were supportive of him proposing and me joining their family too!

I think he spoke to all parents to be honest, including my mum. He also spoke to all his friends! I was the very last to know he was proposing!

No one is telling women, who like the idea, that they are being controlled. What is being pointed out is that this “tradition” is not really romantic at all and is not rooted, in any way, in any kind of respect. People are allowed to point these things out without being told to chill out.

One of my oldest friends asked the father's permission to marry his wife (they tied the knot earlier this year.) My friend is sweet and sometimes likes to do things in the "traditional" way. The sexist connotations/idea of women being property will likely not even have occurred to him.

When I learned he asked permission, I did think at the time that it's probably something hardly anyone ever does any more.

My OH did the same for the same reasons. It is nice to make the dads feel included

Same! I find it so weird. Surely if you're with someone you love, you talk about getting married?! So why is it this big weird event, where it's all an alleged surprise? It's so bizarre.

I honestly don't understand where 'respect' fits in with this. Why does it show 'respect' for a man to ask his partners parents (Dad!) if he can propose?

I agree. My sister's husband called my mum (didn't have my dad's number) and asked her to pass the phone to dad. Literally just completely bypassing mum in the conversation. I don't think that shows respect at all tbh.

My son in law did tell me that he was going to ask my daughter to marry him. I think this was a nice thing to do (note...he wasn't asking permission, he was being courteous and informing me of his intentions to propose, which was respectful).

There's no 'dad' in our relationship as I've brought up my children alone (their dad has never been involved).

I was very emotional as a mum when this lovely young man nervously told me of his plans to propose to my daughter. It was very sweet, not at all what some posters are making it out to be. There was no 'possession' intent...merely a respectful conversation.

It became non compulsory in the 20s but brides could still opt to include the version with obey. (I don't know if it is still an available option but I distinctly remember Sarah Ferguson said "obey" at her 1987 wedding, which caused some surprise as Diana had opted out of saying it in 1981.)