To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

It really has OP.

It’s interesting because it’s not true.

I take issue with the ongoing discussion about women’s spaces being framed like it’s on behalf of all womankind. It’s particularly prevalent here, and on X/Twitter.

It’s always, IMO, phrased like we all feel this strongly on the subject, women all demand this and the other, we all campaign for etc etc.

We don’t. Some of us actually don’t. There are women, like you’ve seen, who actually don’t share those strong beliefs and don’t need representation on the matter. We’re okay with trying to live our lives without all of it.

We also, are women, just not ones you agree with.

And again, the OP's opening post was using the article to open discussion but not limited to the article.

No. You didn't tell posters to not be here, you have just tried to direct their discussion to what you, personally, wanted the discussion to be about.

That’s a debate that it’s likely not worth getting in to.

I don’t feel uncomfortable around all men. So personally, I recognise obviously that there are risks, but I try not to live in permanent fear.

Other women are again entitled to feel uncomfortable, discomfort, however they feel - but it still wouldn’t be representative of all womankind.

I think it’s quite clear who has been directing the discussion.

The discussion had actually already been directed, I’ve been disagreeing with that direction. Unless of course I’m not allowed to do that, and other opinions need not apply?

You are also trying to direct the discussion to what you, personally, want the discussion to be about.

I think it is to try to portray any woman who disagrees that gender neutral toilets don't increase the risk of harm as being hatefully focused on a particular group of male people.

The significance is, of course, that there are no groups of adult male people in the UK who should be considered to have any less risk than the general male UK population when considering safeguarding issues.

Is so many words for what can be boiled down to "They are trying to make out we're transphobic but transgender women are just as dangerous as men and I actually really want this conversation to be about transgender women in bathrooms"

So what is the difference? The OP isn't actually engaging in the transgender argument, she is still talking about inventing weird seamless bathrooms where cameras can't be hidden and the problems that technology presents. Considering it is her thread perhaps you should be engaging in what she wants to talk about. And it's not transgender people.

And yet, who are single sex spaces there for? the people who don't have any issues with sharing a toilet with male people? Or for the female people who have a need, that you say you don't have, to have a space that is designated for them?

If you don't have a need for single sex spaces, fine. They are obviously not necessary for you. However, they are necessary for female people who need them to be able to function in public.

I don’t feel uncomfortable around ALL men either, but I’d rather just not piss near them if that could be avoided. Or use toilets that they’ve used for all the hygiene points I’ve stated. I recognise other women may have bigger issues with men that would expect spaces traditionally segregated by sex to remain just that and be uncomfortable when they aren’t, for good reason. Space issue aside like I said.

Unless you do a poll of all of ‘womenkind’ no one can really have the final say on what is representative of it. I’d still bet my last Twix though that the majority would want toilets to have a single sex option where possible.

Isn't the OP the person who sets the topic of the thread?

Because males in the majority are perverted predators.

I actually think it might be you. The OP has said fairly little, presumably because it’s been derailed by all this debate about what other women are allowed to think about their own safety.

I’ve got no idea who spaces are for, because I don’t own every toilet in the country and neither do you.

They’re owned and managed by the people in charge of those pubs, restaurants, museums, whatever it is. If they want to change their toilet set up, that’s not really up to me. My part involves using them, or not.

Personally, even if I did have an issue with the space set up anywhere, I would be rallying against precisely nothing - I just wouldn’t go. But I’d not go and also not shout about it, attendance is optional.

If I owned a business and had a toilet arrangement that you didn’t like - cool, don’t come then.

There is genuinely more to my life than shouting about toilets, I have no idea where any of this passion about it is even found.

Do you mean that I have not allowed other women to think about their own safety? Can you please explain how I have done this?

There is genuinely more to my life than shouting about toilets, I have no idea where any of this passion about it is even found.

You've used a lot of words and entered into quite the debate to say just this though. Let the ones who are bothered about the loss of sex segregated toilets be bothered about it, if it's no great shakes to you.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson on the hygiene point I will note, when I was younger I worked in a bar, the female toilets were DISGUSTING. Easily as filthy as the men's when we went round at the end of the night to check everywhere was empty before locking up. The majority of female toilets I've been in in shopping centres and restaurants have also been disgusting. Makeup smeared on the walls, blood on the seats, unflushed faecaes and toilet bowls full of urine and tissue. Both genders are filthy when it comes to the general public.

True. The reason I’ve done that is because I do take issue with those who are bothered, shouting at people on the internet for not agreeing with them.

There’s a level of infighting, demanding answers to various “point proving questions,” and marketing that botheredness as a universal experience that I just cannot get on board with.

The debate is never healthy, it’s always loaded with “well you’re a terrible woman if that’s your view, your views are shocking, that’s disgusting,” etc. some of that is paraphrased, but nobody on the other side of the conversation ever gets to that level.

I, for example, didn’t tell anyone I was shocked by their view, or tell them they were radical for having it, as those of us who don’t agree are regularly told we value men more than women, or we’re doing women’s rights wrong.

It’s that I take issue with, and that that makes me have the debate. I won’t be told I don’t care about women, or that I’m failing as a female for not agreeing with the views of others. We are not all one with the same mind.

That’s unfortunate. I don’t doubt there are unhygienic women who walk amongst us, especially inebriated ones but luckily that’s not been my experience.

Bloody well said and you've summed up exactly what my problem is with it too very eloquently.

These posters are quite aggressive and it's unpleasant for everyone involved. If I read "can you please explain..." "You're very keen to insert some obviously poorly judged opinion here" or "you are limiting the discussion to what you want it to be because you don't like the language we are using" one more time I'll rip my hair out.

It's like it's on repeat as if anyone's opinion that is different from theirs is invalid. They are just trying to shut other women down who don't agree with them and acting as if those who don't agree with them are traitors.

A male person cannot self-ID as not being a risk to women. Women can't trust them.

Personally I do disagree with the OP in that I think gender neutral toilets - where these are self-contained units with a locking door and a sink - are a better approach than male/female toilets with stalls and separate sinks. But that's for reasons of practicality - if I have a coat with me I don't want to have to deal with that before getting to the sink - rather than safety.

On a side note we went to Japan last year. EVERY THING was pristine. You could have eaten your dinner off a public loo seat. The trains were spotless and so were the buses. The people were so polite and treated public facilities with respect it was amazing.

The UK has always been dirty in my opinion but since returning from Japan I am disgusted at the state of our public spaces and facilities and I certainly don't think of women as clean.

Why make it easier for him though? I never understand this as some kind of gotcha point - having separate toilets limits the amount of opportunity a man would have.

It's not a "gotcha point", just the truth, sadly.

And stating this does not mean I do not want or prefer separate toilets for women so please do not twist my words.

The vast majority of gender neutral toilets I've seen in businesses have been individual and self-contained rather than stalls with an enclosed communal area outside. More toilets for women full stop would be a vast improvement.

Oh dear. Do you forget your reaction to my very first post and second posts on this thread and any my reply to your response to my second post on this thread? It is all there for people to see. So, it could be said from looking back that your hyperbole about aggression is projection.

Good to know though that you don’t like people asking you to clarify your stance so they can understand better your opinion and how you came to it to further the discussion.

I haven’t said anyone’s opinion is invalid I have asked questions, agreed with some after clarifying and posted my feelings on the topic. I have disagreed with you and sleeplessinwhatever on some things. At least sleepless has now been upfront and stated they are simply not interested in reading anything linked that people post.

It is almost like you bear a personal grudge about specific posters at this point.

I used to clean student union bars in the 90s to top up my loan.

This is not my experience at all.