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imane khelif has been allegedly confirmed to be a man.

959 replies

Cartwrightandson · 04/11/2024 13:15

A leaked French medical report from 2023 has confirmed that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is male.

Top endocrinologists found that Khelif has XY chromosomes, no uterus, internal testicles, and a "micropenis."

The report was drafted in June of 2023 via a collaboration between the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria. Drafted by expert endocrinologists Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young, the report reveals that Khelif is impacted by 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a disorder of sexual development that is only found in biological males.

reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/

OP posts:
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32
jeaux90 · 04/11/2024 14:48

Legoninjago1 · 04/11/2024 14:47

Makes me feel sick. Poor woman.

Yes I feel really sorry for the women who had to get in the ring with a male who clearly punched a lot harder and had a longer reach than them. I feel sorry for the women who could have medalled but didn't because of a cheating man.

NonPlayerCharacter · 04/11/2024 14:50

wombat15 · 04/11/2024 14:42

Do you think imane khelif is anywhere near as strong as the male elite boxers?

Of course not. That's why he can't be an elite boxer. He's a man so he needs to go against other men. If he can't do it then he's not elite, like 99.9% of everyone.

I'm not as good a gymnast as Simone Biles. What am I entitled to?

Legoninjago1 · 04/11/2024 14:50

That's exactly what I meant @jeaux90 hence I clarified it afterwards.

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:50

I'd be careful here. Trump is on the rampage with anti-Trans ads and he's featured this boxer. I've only found reference to this in the Express Tribune - goodness knows what sort of a publication that is. Watch and wait, lots of Russian bots about.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2024 14:51

THEY DON'T ALWAYS WIN - WHY THIS LOGIC SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK

(these are my thoughts by the way)

But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', what does it matter, type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, their performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.
So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

Using Boxing as an example:

If you are supporting male inclusion based on 'they don't always win',
what you are supporting can, in effect, be very dangerous for female athletes. For instance in boxing, this is due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!
Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.
Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

A game of women's rugby at Swansea University

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women

Research has found women are at a greater risk than men and the effects are more severe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

CosmicRoomster · 04/11/2024 14:51

When the controversy was going on about Caster Semenya someone shared a link that discussed talent scouts in African countries and other poor countries would seek out individuals with the same intersex condition.
Does anyone else remember this?

WestwardHo1 · 04/11/2024 14:51

I still don’t agree with the witch hunt. If Khelif reasonably believed themselves to be female and had been brought up as female since birth without knowing about the chromosomal disorder, they were not acting as a man boxing against women. Intent counts here, I think. If they knew and still competed, that is a different story.

Personally most of my anger is directed at the IOC. It doesn't matter really what Khelif reasonably believed. If I reasonably believed I had a sight impediment and thought I should be eligible to compete in visually impaired events, you might expect the powers that be to check thoroughly whether I was eligible, not just tell everyone "Well it says she is visually impaired on her passport".

What is the difference?

lifeturnsonadime · 04/11/2024 14:51

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:50

I'd be careful here. Trump is on the rampage with anti-Trans ads and he's featured this boxer. I've only found reference to this in the Express Tribune - goodness knows what sort of a publication that is. Watch and wait, lots of Russian bots about.

What's that got to do with Khalif.

He's not trans.

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:51

Not saying I'm a supporter of this boxer in the ring with a woman but wondering about this source.

Melroses · 04/11/2024 14:51

TheKeatingFive · 04/11/2024 14:08

That wasn't even their criteria. It was anyone with an F on a passport.

Well that is not going to work.

Any person in Germany can now have and F on their passport and change it back and forth every year.

I wonder if Thomas Bach had this in mind? 🤔

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/11/2024 14:51

It comes from a French publication.

lecorrespondant.net/imane-khelif-ni-ovaires-ni-uterus-mais-des-testicules/

jeaux90 · 04/11/2024 14:51

@OVienna Reduxx is a valid source doing the journalism that the mainstream are failing to do.

IDareSay · 04/11/2024 14:51

There was short debate on men in women's sport in the HoL recently. Many of the peers were shamefully ignorant, especially the government minister in the Lords. I posted about in FWR.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5198729-shameful-short-debate-on-womens-sport-in-the-house-of-lords-29th-october?reply=139449875

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:51

lifeturnsonadime · 04/11/2024 14:51

What's that got to do with Khalif.

He's not trans.

Edited

Good question - Trump's ads feature this person though, in that context.

TiredEyesSoreHeart · 04/11/2024 14:51

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:50

I'd be careful here. Trump is on the rampage with anti-Trans ads and he's featured this boxer. I've only found reference to this in the Express Tribune - goodness knows what sort of a publication that is. Watch and wait, lots of Russian bots about.

Define 'anti-trans'. Do you mean pro-female sports rights?

BoobyDazzler · 04/11/2024 14:52

You don’t say 🤣

heathspeedwell · 04/11/2024 14:52

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, here's another man with 5 ARD who has been taking women's medals and claiming to be a woman, despite having been through male puberty when his voice broke. The BBC still describes Caster Semenya as 'a woman with naturally high testosterone'.

Note how Semenya slips up in this interview and refers to women as 'they and them'.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

latetonews · 04/11/2024 14:53

WetBandits · 04/11/2024 13:30

I still don’t agree with the witch hunt. If Khelif reasonably believed themselves to be female and had been brought up as female since birth without knowing about the chromosomal disorder, they were not acting as a man boxing against women. Intent counts here, I think.

If they knew and still competed, that is a different story.

Edited

So you think the results of the medical report that he consented to, were not shared with him ?

of course he knew !

jeaux90 · 04/11/2024 14:53

reduxx.info/about/

For anyone unfamiliar who founded reduxx and their ethos.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2024 14:53

5ARD INFORMATION FROM CAROLE HOOVEN

This is from Carole Hooven (hoovlet on Twitter).

It touches on the hormone AMH which is the hormone that stops the production of the uterus and fallopian tubes. It is produced in the testes of male people. And as such there are no ovaries, because the body developed testes instead.
There is are male conditions where this hormone is not produced. In Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, male people with this still develop as ‘typical male’ developmentally.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zCd4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

The relevant parts of the tweet is below:

Males with 5-ARD do not have a uterus or other female internal structures, but they do have what looks like a vagina, so are often sexed as females. However they are males with normal testes, which produce typical male hormones. Those hormones, among other things, prevent the development of female internal reproductive structures (like the uterus and cervix).

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

Males need high levels of T for male-typical development of all the male reproductive structures. Without T production and action, the external (penis and scrotum) and internal (described above) genitalia won't develop. But as I wrote in my monster tweet yesterday, T alone isn't enough for development of the penis and scrotum (and prostate): for that, T must be converted into DHT (a more potent androgen, production pathway below), and people with 5-ARD don't make the necessary enzyme to carry out that conversion. So they end up with what appears to be a vagina.

FYI, some males inherit a genetic mutation that means they can't produce AMH. They are typical males, but have a nonfunctional uterus and fallopian tubes inside their abdomen. The condition often not discovered until adulthood (it's called Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome). AMH is an important hormone for males, but hardly anyone even knows it exists.
Also, the testes generally don't descend into the scrotum before birth (as usual) without DHT, but they often do at puberty when testosterone levels reach high concentrations. So males with 5-ARD may be "sexed" as female, due to the female-appearing external genitalia.

But brain and the rest of the body are typically male. Most people with the condition will "transition" to living as a male once they realize they are male, and this often happens at puberty, when the testes descend and the body develops in a typically masculine way.

x.com

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

TiredEyesSoreHeart · 04/11/2024 14:54

OVienna · 04/11/2024 14:51

Good question - Trump's ads feature this person though, in that context.

So because Trump's ads feature him, that means we should shut up about it?

If Trump created an ad against animal cruelty, should we therefore not speak of animal cruelty again, lest we share the same opinion as Trump on something?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 04/11/2024 14:55

wombat15 · 04/11/2024 14:04

I agree.

Khelif gave up the right to privacy about his sex when he chose to compete in women's sports. He had ample opportunities between learning of his physical sex and competing when he could have retreated with his dignity intact, but he chose to double down and go forward with punching women knowing he had no right to be in their competition.

Fuck around, get found out.

He does not deserve your sympathy.

Whatever sympathy he might have deserved at being diagnosed late in life was more than burned to the ground when, following these results, he knowingly chose to continue competing as "a woman" despite not being one. Not only that but he and his team also lauched media attacks against people who were in fact correctly identifying his sex. Although he's gone very quiet about that law suit he threatened JKR with, hasn't he?

Don't you think his victims, those in the ring and outside in culture, are more deserving of your sympathy? Why do you feel worse for a man who knowingly deceived than the people he cheated and attacked?

Hoppinggreen · 04/11/2024 14:55

idkbroidk · 04/11/2024 14:15

you people are monsters :( this is an awful way to talk about someone

What is worse?
People discussing a medical report or people who enable men to punch women in the name of sport?

jeaux90 · 04/11/2024 14:56

x.com/icons_women/status/1644777419138797568?s=46&t=kS1Jlgo9qmN1IdMmSHL7UA

Not a new phenomenon. Ever since the IOC stopped sex screening in 1999. Rio, all three 800m medals were won by males with DSDs

This needs to stop.

Helleofabore · 04/11/2024 14:56

XY ATHLETES WITH TESTES: INFORMATION FROM CAROLE HOOVEN

Thread starts here there are charts linked in one of the tweets below:

First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits.

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone.

DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.

The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed.

I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence.

Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.)

For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes.

For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2).

The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups.
The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)."

"Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)."
Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.

We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759
and the charts are posted incase they are lost in the future but are in this tweet.
https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819046454922518835

imane khelif has been allegedly confirmed to be a man.