imane khelif has been allegedly confirmed to be a man.

[Cartwrightandson]

A leaked French medical report from 2023 has confirmed that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is male.

Top endocrinologists found that Khelif has XY chromosomes, no uterus, internal testicles, and a "micropenis."

The report was drafted in June of 2023 via a collaboration between the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria. Drafted by expert endocrinologists Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young, the report reveals that Khelif is impacted by 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a disorder of sexual development that is only found in biological males.

reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/

What we have seen on this thread though has been typical fallacy and misinformed arguments. Posters think they are gotcha points. But they are actually failures in their logic. There have been just plain falsehoods and irrelevancies as well. Here are just a few.

1 But he doesn’t win all the time

This fails because it shows the poster doesn’t understand competitive advantage and why a male being in a female sports category is unfair.

2 But sports are unfair by nature / people don’t complain about Phelps winning.

The Phelps argument is also a logical failure. Because sports is about recognising the best athletes in a category. Those within the category are considered to have the same potential to win, albeit with different advantages. I have linked two experts explanation for this up thread.

3 But males with a 5ARD diagnosis don’t go through normal male puberty they can’t compete in the male category.

Studies have indicated that for the purpose of sports, male people with this diagnosis produce and process all the hormones that are needed for equal sporting performance with all other male people. Therefore this is false information (albeit not a logical fallacy)

If they require a special protected category for themselves, they should campaign for this.

It was never appropriate to allow these male people into the female sporting category.

4 But it is hard to be a male person with 5ARD and therefore this male deserves special treatment.

How hard a person’s life is, to be blunt, irrelevant to their inclusion into a protected sports category they do not belong in. Because for every hardship that person has, there is likely a person who belongs in the sports category with an equally hard life who will have been displaced by that athlete’s inclusion.

5 But people can’t tell who is male and who is female 100%! / Look at her… she looks just as male!

This should be an irrelevant discussion point because the IOC should have continued to protect the female sports category by keeping sex testing as the only acceptable basis of entry into the female sports category.

Women should not have to be put in the position of being demonised for pointing out that a male person is competing in a female sport. And when women discuss when a person’s body has the cues that indicate that the person has a male sexed body, they are not describing how ‘masculine’ a person looks. They are talking about specific male body cues that are unique to the skeletons of male people.

Absolutely. Fed up with the myth of ‘passing’. I spot a trans actor instantly every fricking time one appears on the TV - I may double take because facially/make up wise it isn’t really obvious yet something has pinged my brain the second they’ve appeared on screen, whether it’s a waist-up scene or they walk into the room - we are not the sum of our facial features and our dress sense, it is the whole package. Movement, facial expressions, posture, gait, joint angles, the mathematically proven ratio of facial features across sexes (and ages: studies show we find women more beautiful the closer that ratio maps onto baby feature ratios, for example).

Ironically as an AuDHD I think my brain picks up the dissonance immediately because I’ve spent a lifetime having to/trying to decode ‘the natural’ and, as an adoptee into a muslim/Iranian household, also cultural nuances which create conflict if you fuck up. Posture is a cue as to tension, aggression, mood, ; vocal tone (which confuses me so often - are they trying to be funny or is the sarcasm mal-intended?) so a male voice, especially one feigning femininity, sets my synapses off.

So no, I’ve never missed that a person in trans in person or on screen…

My brain is similarly wired to pick up inconsistency and dissonance when it comes to bodies and facial expressions and tone too.

However, I have a friend who cannot recognise faces at all so it is always possible that some female people really cannot pick up male body cues. What they shouldn’t do is try to shame those who can just because they can’t or they think they can’t.

Oh I have face blindness. If someone isn't in the "right" setting or changes the colour of their hair then it takes ages for me to recognise them BUT I can still tell men from women. Voice, gait, skeletal proportion etc. And I'm one of those lucky women who haven't been sexually assaulted too so my antenna isn't hypervigilant. Show me a photo and I might not get it right, show me a video and I do.

Me too on having a brain that instantly pings if something is dissonant about someone’s face. Includes if they’ve had some form of cosmetic procedure, my brain can get stuck in a loop of “but their lips/forehead/cheeks!” which is very distracting and annoying.

Remembering their name is a whole other ballgame…

Considering that the female category was introduced in sport to allow women to compete without risk, surely it should be that you have to PROVE you are female in order to compete in that category? To ASSUME that you are female and to ask someone to PROVE you are male, seems wrong.

Also, for those who claim some women beat these men.

That's because these men are crap.

They cannot compete in their own category, so, quite literally, punch down into someone else's.

Would you say the same if an incredibly unfit, unhealthy person identified into the Paralympics? That a paralympian managed to beat them sometimes, so therefore it's completely fair?

People come to watch outstanding female athletes, at the peak of the fitness, competing against each other.

Not rubbish men.

I know that's hard to understand for some people. It's amazing how they simply cannot drag their eyes off the men in question, and focus on the women. In their own sports category.

Indeed jaxhog

From certain levels of sport competitors entering any protected category, be it age, or disability or even nationality will require proof. In the 90s something like 80+% female athletes at the Olympic level agreed with sex testing being continued. The IOC instead was convinced by an activist group that to force these male athletes to the indignity of sex testing was a human rights violation.

Not one of those making the decision must have thought about the female athletes rights to safety. And the female athletes were willing to forgo their dignity to ensure that safety and fairness.

Imagine the outrage if a fully sighted runner competed in the Paralympics as a competitor? Yet… because of an emotional life history, somehow these male athletes seem to be considered acceptable.

snap! datun!

There's got to be such a massive helping of sexism to it. What's the point of women's sport?

You might as well just say let's watch cheetahs run then, not men.

Women at the peak of their physical fitness giving everything they've got, is an aspiration, an inspiration. Watching men cheat really, really isn't.

Don't know anything about this substacker:

https://khmezek.substack.com/p/was-imane-khelif-in-the-algerian

It depends how accurate the translation is.

And words like 'soldier' can be used figuratively.

Theoretically, yes. He'd have to change his legal sex, but even if this weren't possible in the US I bet some other country would have him and let him. The IOC allow anyone who's legally considered a woman to compete in the women's category.

I'm not sure what the position is for testosterone levels, but I believe he'd also have to confirm he's not pregnant.

FFS

My 7 year old is a faster runner than me, despite me being the one that actually goes on runs. Does that grant me entry into the local kids' athletics club?

No because being a crap adult runner doesn't mean I get to race 7 year olds as a consolation prize. And whilst many kids would beat me, no doubt I'd beat some of the others and in doing so bump them down the rankings and mean one kid couldn't join at all.

It's obvious, right? And that's without even being a contact sport like boxing.

Irrelevant. If Lance Armstrong had been beaten sometimes would it still have been cheating?

Plus he could have thrown some matches to try and muddy the waters like Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard did.

Quite. I can only assume I'd get my arse thoroughly kicked at the Paralympics, but that doesn't mean I've any right to take a spot off someone in the amputee races.

The 'but he lost' fallacy never works because those attempting to leverage it in have lost sight (if they ever had it) of WHY there is a protected category of sports for female people. It is almost like the person trying to use it has never once considered sports and the purpose of sport.

And it is supposed to be protected sports category.

If you have used this tactic such as @Happiestwhen and others have, perhpas think about what other category boundaries you would be happy to accept using your own 'the rules allowed it' argument. Would you say the same about:

A 25 year old competing against 10 year olds in a 10 and under category? 'What about' if that 25 year old lost to a 10 year old? Does that make it ok? What about if that 25 year old was 'just like a 10 year old' in some way, does that make it ok?

A 25 year old competing against 85 year olds in a 85+ year old master's category? 'What about' if that 25 year old lost to a 86 year old? Does that make it ok?

Only one 85+ year old was displaced from the race after all.... what the fuck does that matter?

A person who had 90% vision competing in a category for those with 5% vision in visually impaired category for those with 5% and less ?

A person who was a professional standard athlete competing in a novice only event ?

A bicycle with an electric engine competing against a 100% human powered bicycle in the Tour de France?

If you have said yes to any of these, why did you say yes?

If you have said no to any, then why would you then accept a male with pubertal advantages in a female sports category? Especially, where that male person can deliver a life limited or shortening punch ?

Because, why?
A emotive personal history?
He is just like a female boxer?
He gets beaten by female boxers?
He cannot compete with other male boxers because ..... (insert reason)?
His identity document says he is 'female' and just because the is not the accurate sex, that shouldn't matter?
He is reducing his testosterone?

Is it just female people who you are ok to screw over in accepting their protected category is no longer fit for purpose? Why? Because any male person with that male pubertal advantage in the right situation can qualify for the category if the rules allow it?

Theoretically, yes. He'd have to change his legal sex

He wouldn't in many countries, including the U.K.

Unless I'm mixed up, my recollection is that Harrington defeated Khelif prior to the most recent Olympics, in the period of time before he'd received intensive training.

Originally, Khelif's technique was simply not up to it - he was relying on brute force alone.

Khelif was defeated by Kellie Harrington in the Tokyo Olympics. Khelif started boxing only in 2016 and went through lock down. So, a boxer with much less than five years experience made it to the Olympics only having around 2 years international experience.

It is such a fucked up 'gotcha' it is ludicrous. And yet, what it also shows is that in just 3 years this male boxer improved dramatically AND moved up a weight class. Well, hey. Puberty finished I guess. Either way, still a relatively inexperienced boxer compared the female boxers that competed and still people think this is a great 'gotcha'...

As I asked "Can you name any other female boxer gold medalist at the 2024 Olympics who only started boxing in 2016 when Khelif started?" and no one has come forward with an answer.

The statement that the poster made reminded me of Miller in Australia's comment. A male of over 50 years old when Miller made the statement after being an Australian Aquatic event champion for years, so had elite fitness, and then becoming a 'woman' who then played rugby with twenty something year olds. Miller made a stupid statement about how Miller didn't see any other 40 + year old female's playing rugby. Miller called the honest answers 'hate'. People pointed out that Miller was male and that female people of the same age a) are unlikely to have to fitness and speed to play with 20 something female players so wouldn't be picked AND b) perimenopausal and menopausal female players would risk significant injury playing with 20 something female players.

It is just like the fuckwittery around Hubbard's selection in the Tokyo Olympics. Far older than the female weightlifters.... but apparently there is no fucking male physical advantages.

So, yeah, the very fact that Khelif made Olympic selection with such little experience compared to the other quarter finalists is a significant fact that the poster's making that comparison miss.

But hey.... it is all part of the fuckwittery around this topic, isn't it?

It is just like the fuckwittery around Hubbard's selection in the Tokyo Olympics. Far older than the female weightlifters.... but apparently there is no fucking male physical advantages.

He wasn't only nearly twice their age, he had also recently sustained a serious injury. He was never more than middling national level as a fit young man, but he became an Olympian in middle age after injury and deemed a fair match against women in their 20s and absolute physical peak. But he didn't WIN so it was all very fair and he had no advantage.

Nobody believes this shite. Nobody. We just need to know why so many people are willing to throw away womens safety, equal opportunities (there are far fewer opportunities and much less money in women's sports so they're disadvantaged anyway) to uphold a delusional male self image. That's the heart of this matter.

And here is the Guardian reporting on the announcement of a legal action.

https://archive.ph/KUO78#selection-1577.0-1577.294

Readers, please notice here the sleight of hand language being used. Again.

Khelif said after winning gold: “I am fully qualified to take part in this competition – I am a woman. I was born a woman, I’ve lived as a woman and I’ve competed as a woman. There’s no doubt that there are enemies of success and that gives my success a special taste because of these attacks.”

Again, this statement is not inconsistent at all with the Reduxx articles.

I am fully qualified to take part in this competition.

Yes, because the IOC deliberately changed its policy to accept male people with 5ARD and other DSDs in 1999. They did not have specific Boxing policy for the Paris 2024 games because they had banned the involvement of the IBC who HAD a policy for male people not being able to compete in the female policy. Leaving the boxing with the generic IOC guidelines which included male people as 'fully qualified' to compete in the female category.

I am a woman.

Sure, under the current IOC guidelines any male athlete says they are a 'woman' and has the passport that shows this fulfils part of the criteria. If a male with a DSD stated they were not a woman, they would not be able to participate as I understand it.

I was born a woman

Yes. This is true, because a doctor signed off on an error on a birth certificate which is common for male people with this particular medical condition.

I’ve lived as a woman

Notice here that Khelif says 'lived as a woman', not 'living as a woman'. Could be just a language error. But yes, if the passport says 'female' and Khelif competes as a female boxer, then that is all that is needed to 'live as a woman' for the Olympics.

I’ve competed as a woman

Yes, because of the rule changes from 1999. However, this strangely ignores that three boxing confederations BANNED Khelif in 2023 from competing as a 'woman'. It is only really the Olympics that allowed this.

And so it goes. This is not me making bad faith interpretations here. This is me pointing out how the language that the IOC and Khelif and Khelif's management work to avoid an accurate and true fact that would change people's minds.

None of them say 'Khelif is a female person with XX chromosomes'.

This tactic is the tactic used by those supporting Caster Semenya's inclusion and Mboma and others. However, since Semenya, there has been one dramatic change. No longer do we see 'This is a female person with naturally high testosterone'. Because that has been shown to be a direct falsehood.

Notice that they have not used this in regards to Khelif.... because Khelif reduced testosterone under the guidance of the endocrinologists Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young at the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria.

So, Khelif's testosterone for the Olympics was suppressed or at least leading up to the Olympics.

AND NO FEMALE ATHLETE HAS TO REDUCE THEIR NATURALLY PRODUCED TESTOSTERONE LEVELS.

Note: And media outlets question why people don't trust them anymore!

I found it interesting, if not in any way surprising, that the Guardian made no mention of the report a couple of days ago, and are only reporting on this man's challenge to it.

@NonPlayerCharacter

Nobody believes this shite. Nobody. We just need to know why so many people are willing to throw away womens safety, equal opportunities (there are far fewer opportunities and much less money in women's sports so they're disadvantaged anyway) to uphold a delusional male self image. That's the heart of this matter.

Because they are focussing on what the man needs not how it impacts the women. They go in with the presumption that he should be accomodated by women, the only question being how.

That's why we get people saying "it's all very complicated" and "how can you be so awful to this poor suffering person". Because for them the question is "at what point is this man so far removed from other men we might as well consider him a woman?" or "what is a fair way to balance this man's need to be included with women with the impact on women?". And a fair answer to those questions is indeed complicated. It's so complicated it is impossible.

But put the women and what they need in the centre and all that complexity melts away.

"Are women the same as weak men, or men with surgery, or men with low testosterone" . No. They are a different sex to men.
"Do women benefit from including men in their sports?" No. They lose out.

That's right, and in the meantime Khélif bulked up to the next weight category - something that having been through male puberty made possible, because he was able to put on the extra kilos as muscle.

Amy Broadhurst tried to do the same thing, and it didn't work because not having been through male puberty, she couldn't build up muscle, and when she put on the extra kilos, she just lost condition and strength instead.

BTW the photo posted further up is not Khélif, as is made clear in the link.
Not only does it not look like him, the badge on the shirt is Moroccan, and during the Olympics it was suggested that the whole IK-is-a-man thing was cooked up by Morocco to discredit Algeria and prevent their Star Turn and National Icon from getting a medal.