Reaching out 🥲

[LoveAlways1]

Hi fellow mums.

This is hard to type. I don’t usually reach out, I have spent my life so far supporting myself and others. I’m usually the one people reach out to. However, I’m going to give this a go, so please be kind.

I have a 16 year old son. We are a small family, just me, his dad and I. We don’t have any family around to help and, despite him having many Godparents, none of them have made any effort at all to be in his life.

He is a clever, talented boy, and isn’t depressed. However, he only brushes his teeth occasionally (about once a week), rarely washes and refuses to cut his hair. It’s very long. I wouldn’t mind this if he looked after it. But he doesn’t.

We (all three of us) have always had a loving, harmonious, supportive relationship, in a peaceful environment (i.e. no trauma, arguments etc).

We love him and care about him very much and we have talked with him about the importance of looking after himself (what will happen if he doesn’t, what will happen if he does etc) many many times but to no avail.
We have tried everything (taking away privileges, rewards etc).

Nothing is working.

His teeth are yellow, his hair is dirty and usually unbrushed, he will probably start smelling soon (he has a bag full of everything I could think of that he might need - electric razor, electric toothbrush, vitamins, face cleanser, shower gel, flannel, sponge comb, brush etc). And we always keep communication open. We are there for him always.

He rarely goes outside and I’m certain he is going to be deficient in vitamin D and other vitamins and nutrients as he doesn’t eat fruits or vegetables. He won’t let us weigh him either. “No” is his favourite word.

When I talk with my partner (his dad) about it he says he has tried talking to him many times but isn’t going to worry about it now as it’s his choice. I get that, but try as I might, I just can’t stop worrying about it! we have one main job - to keep him healthy. I feel like we are failing and I just don’t know what to do.

Please can anyone offer some advice that they have found to have worked?

Thank you x

I should probably also add that my Son loves to talk in an American or Glaswegian accent (He's very good at them - He can also do a very good French accent). But then My brother loved to talk in a Belfast accent and he's neurotypical (But I think he did it to wind our Mum up - it was before the Good Friday Agreement and she though everyone with an Irish accent was a terrorist). I also encouraged him to do it because I like the accent

As ASD is on the cards, I want to mention that introducing "new" things—whether expectations/rules, routines/habits or even a new toothpaste brand—takes a lot of time and perseverance. If he says "no" or won't engage with something the first time, keep trying for several days. Not continuously. (Don't nag.) But reiterate it every day, in different words, until he gets used to the idea. (This won't work if it's a different ND e.g. ADHD, PDA, ODD, etc. But ASD goes with structured routines - and habits/routines take time to establish... and are a pita to break. Even if you're NT, a new habit can take up to a month to establish!)

A lot of homeschoolers take the 14-16 college route, but there'll likely still be a reasonable cohort at 16+ if college appeals to him. A second setting (other than "home") will help with a diagnosis pathway too. In the meantime, I hope you are engaging with your local HE community even if your kid isn't. I reckon coffee and a chat with local HE moms IRL would help you brainstorm lots of ideas. (Get thee to FB if you aren't already on there.) x

If he loves singing can you take him to some live music, a musical or a local theatre production? Does he play any instruments? Would he be open to joining a relaxed choir? If he loves cats then maybe he could volunteer at the local cat rescue? Do a course in animal management? If he loves gaming maybe you could take him to something like comic con or other gaming meet ups and he could meet his friends in real life. If he's going out and about he'll be motivated to maintain his personal hygiene and this will help his confidence. Buying an electric tooth brush sometimes helps and you can tooth paste with no flavour.

And how do you propose enforcing this @MrsSunshine2b ? It’s all well and good saying parents need to take action but how does that work in practice?

Hi OP!
I really liked the psychologist’s post and hope you ignore the unhelpful comments. My son is also 16, doing online school since September, with very long hair and poor hygiene. I could have written much of your post to be honest! He is a very bright and social autistic teen. In fact his best friend (also autistic) also has waist length hair (but better hygiene, and a bit older at 18). I understand how challenging it is. And I know the tough love suggestion would just make everything worse. The autism groups and forums have been helpful in my situation, as hygiene comes up ALOT. In my son case, he gets overwhelmed with all the steps involved in washing hair, showering, etc. He also had sensory issues with toothpaste.
I also have a 21 year old autistic son whose hygiene is much better but it’s not something he enjoys doing. We encourage him to go out as much as possible, as he will have a good scrub before going out. He hates hair getting in his eyes so prefers short hair.
You are not alone 😊

@LoveAlways1 If your son likes the idea of having a pet dog OP (understanding that its care will be entirely down to him, of course) this is an excellent idea from @Bakingandcrying . He would have to take it for walks and I can tell you from my own experience, it's impossible to have a dog and not socialise with people in the real world (usually other dog owners/walkers).
Your son may not be depressed or on the autistic spectrum, but he is most definitely in a very deep rut and has developed some very bad habits, but they are just this - habits - and the bad ones can be broken and new ones developed, but there needs to be a catalyst for this when basic reasoning from you and your DH about what's socially acceptable has failed. A dog - if your DS wants one - could well be the answer. It's time for your son to rejoin society and all that entails i.e. presenting his best self to the world.
Incidentally, there is a proven link between poor oral hygiene and heart disease and people with gum disease have two to three times the risk of having a heart attack, stroke, or other serious cardiovascular event. You say home-schooling has gone well, which suggests your son isn't unintelligent, so maybe you could share with him the various studies (you can search for them online easily enough) which show the self-harm he's doing by not brushing his teeth - appealing to his intellect may work.

Best wishes OP.
Just a few suggestions, one of mine hates mint toothpaste, I'm sure you've thought of this already but buy every type you can find and get him to taste and pick the one prefers. Also electric toothbrush with a timer so it turns itself off. Dental hygenists are fabulous and usually gorgeous young ladies. Def worth a try.

Completely random but have you thought of surprising him with a puppy? I know, I know you will probably end up looking after it and he will leave it with you "just for a while" when he moves out ,been there done that, but they need care and attention and time and love and walks! Just a thought.And you can never have too many dogs. ( desperately trying to stop myself buying my 4th - she's a rescue and I feel she needs me😂)

With the internet friends if my youngest is talking to someone online then he needs to have it on speaker so we can hear every word ( his laptop is in the dining room). Otherwise there is no conversation allowed at all. I occasionally hear the odd inappropriate word and yell out"Oi! Language!" that seems to stop them.
Online chat is much harder but you can actually delete it from most games, then he'd have to talk and you can hear.

Oh and I'm not sure where you live but our GP's do "telehealth" . Basically you just book in for a time and they ring you. No need to go anywhere or see anyone. They just chat away, ask about your symptoms etc Very easy. He might like that if he's good on the phone.
That's all I've got sorry. Good luck

Cross post about the puppy soz

And you also say "he started being like this around the time we began homeschooling him. Around 12 years old."

So the homeschooling didn't actually work, when he's as unhappy as he was in school.

I don't have children. But I have experience of being an unhappy adolescent. Not from bullying or homeschooling, just bored and unhappy at school and bored and unhappy at home with a single mother I didn't get on with.

But this isolated background has made me - and even long before you could have a online 'life' instead - overall quite insular, insecure and avoidant of contact with people IRL. I can empathise with your son and him not wanting to do anything and refusing contact.

I progressed into reading books and having sex, as a means to try to balance the isolation. The latter didn't work, of course.

I don't know what the answer is other than to say to try to make his life bigger and wider. Somehow. Fun. Travel to foreign countries. Lots of kind, warm lovely people around sort of thing. This may shatter the glass walls. The feeling I remember from those years is of enclosure - it sounds as if he needs true freedom, like going to work on a farm in Australia or something and riding horses.

Sorry if this sounds a bit mad.

I also have a son aged 16 formally diagnosed with ASD, ADHD (and likely PDA).

Primary school was very difficult. He struggled so much with doing any writing at all. (he got a laptop in year 8 which really helped)

We went into lockdown almost as soon as he started secondary, which had its positives as it got him out of an environment that had many good points but with which he struggled a lot in terms of the discipline.

However, although home schooling went well for quite a lot of year 7 and year 8, I figured he really needed to be with peers and put a lot of effort into making sure he engaged back with school (throwing no shade on your choices here, as I can completely understand your concerns about the abuse your child suffered at school)

One thing that was really good about secondary was that he had been in quite a negative bullying type situation at primary, and secondary was in a different area and away from the first lot of kids. That was very powerful for him.

Music has been wonderful for him as it is an outlet and a means of socialising and also a skill that people admire. It has taken him all sorts of places and he met his girlfriend there.

We have also been there with the hair and the toothbrushing and the lack of soap and water (it transpired that he thought he could do without soap when having a bath etc).

Doing activities at school (around the music) where he needed to look a certain way, really encouraged him to get his post lockdown hair cut at about 14. All his peer group told him he looked better with short hair, which reinforced it.

He had wanted to experiment with an emo look, but I eventually pointed out that one of his musical heroes had gone for both short and long hair looks, and he could try out a different style.

It turned out that it was important for him to go to a barber that wasn't for either old people or little kids (!) so we found one of these slightly fashionable places that does erm a dark fade? mostly for teens, twenties, thirties (they usually have a teen rate).

He always got on well with girls, even at primary school, rather better on average than with the boys. Having a girlfriend really helped with the hygiene stuff, cue lots of wet towels all over the bathroom and small crates of lynx for birthdays and Christmas.

I also agree about the dental hygenist - DS sees the dentist 6 monthly and also hygenist 6 monthly since he was 14. it is useful to remove plaque but possibly also more useful to have another adult backing up the need for the tooth brushing etc and telling him how to brush his teeth more effectively. I did get him an electric toothbrush but he won't use it, ditto plaque disclosing tablets. He has no fillings but there is concern that his hygiene needs to improve a lot to prevent them. He has had fluoride paint put on some teeth by our lovely dentist (having a sympathetic dentist is very important). He now tells me he is brushing twice a day. The current aim is to introduce flossing, he has some of those plastic wishbone things to help the flossing along and I have just bought him some xylitol stuff in case that helps any.

Also, are there any support groups for ASD parents and carers round where you are? Ours doesn't require a completed diagnosis, as it takes so long (it took us 2 years for ASD and coming up 5 years for ADHD, still awaiting an appointment to discuss the diagnosis). You will meet lots of lovely caring mums who have been through similar and who understand that It Is Not Your Fault xx

They have cats. He loves them. He doesn't need a dog. Read the thread.

I would focus on getting him back into education. Have you discussed with him what the plan would be after 16? I assume he has just taken GCSEs I don't know whether it would be too late to start at a college this school year. He sounds a lovely boy but he needs to be around people his own age.

The guitar, a keyboard , the trumpet. Heaps of online lessons. Yes I know he has cats, dogs are different beings. x

It's unfortunate he's been isolated for so long from his peer group. In my experience, they soon get into the shower when their friends tell them they stink. He now apparently, has missed his opportunity to make those early social links and doesn't know now to function adequately in a world that is now strange to him. Your family should seek professional help. This situation is not good and requires intervention from someone outside your family.

I’ve lived in Scotland for almost 40 years and only ever heard people say they are “Celtic” if they mean they support the football team.
Previous posters comment was not bitchy at all.

Again - I was referring to the you like to appear different/cool comment.
unnecessary and bitchy

@Outnumberedmummy2022 i am sorry I misinterpreted the comment.

Yep, don't doubt it.

Then you would surely know that "neurodiversity" can't be diagnosed. It's a term that describes the diversity of all human minds, not a medical diagnosis. There is no assessment for neurodiversity because we are all neurodiverse!

Autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia etc can all be assessed and diagnosed and are what I’m referring to under the umbrella term of neurodiversity.

We are not all neurodiverse, that defeats the purpose of what it even is - deviation from the norm. Which is exactly what the tests measure. I will not be de-railing this thread by further discussion, especially as no one on this forum can diagnose OPs son over the internet. He may be neurodiverse but he has also experienced significant trauma, symptoms of which can overlap with autism - so it is not straight forward. I hope OP and her son get the help needed.

Deviation from the norm = neurodivergent, not neurodiverse. Neurodiversity is an umbrella term that does indeed apply to everyone, but the neurodivergent umbrella includes the conditions you mention. But a lot of people don't get that right. Maybe the terms are just too similar and that's why people get confused. Even clin psychs.

(I'm an autistic ex ed psych and specialise in clinical ed in this area so I do know what I'm talking about).

I agree with you about trauma and the possibility of overlap and that OP would be best advised to have a proper assessment, nobody on the internet can or should be trying to draw certain conclusions from the info given.

Your explanation of neurodiversity vs neurodivergence is interesting, thank you. I think I’ve been using the incorrect terminology too.

However, could it be one of those times where the incorrect term (in this case neurodiverse) is so widely used it has come to mean something else (in this case neurodivergent), in common parlance at least?

I just looked up the dictionary definition of neurodiverse and this is what Merriam-Webster defines the term as:
“having or relating to brain function that is not neurotypical”.
But, if I’ve understood you correctly, that’s actually neurodivergent in the terminology you outlined @CrazyGoatLady.

It’s no wonder people are confused 🤔

Absolutely no wonder people are confused!

The terms have become conflated more and more as people/organisations have jumped on the neurodiversity bandwagon. There's any number of "neurodiversity advocates" and "neurodiversity coaches" out there now, some of whom have l, shall we say, more grounding in what all of this means than others!

I've been at this a while now, before it was trending 😂 so I go by the original definitions as set out by Judy Singer, Harvey Blume et al (who wrote originally about Neurodiversity as a concept, the normalisation of the differences between all human brains) and Kassiane Asasumasu, who coined the term "neurodivergent" because they felt "neurodiversity/neurodiverse" didn't accurately describe or capture the experiences of those whose neurology was more different from expected norms/those who are more vulnerable to discrimination because of said differences.

I realise I am probably "old school" in sticking to the terms being distinct and not interchangeable - but also, I'm autistic and language accuracy and precision is important, if someone says "neurodiverse" it can be hard to know what they are actually referring to or mean.

Thanks @CrazyGoatLady.

The older I’ve got the more I realise how important it is to have terms precisely defined when you’re discussing something. Otherwise people end up talking at cross purposes, even arguing about things when they’ve actually pretty much on the same page but simply misunderstanding what the other means.

As an example, I read a thread on MN recently that got quite heated all because of a difference in understanding of the term ‘Brits’. Some posters included those people who identified as British in Northern Ireland in that term. Others - who were, interestingly, mostly people in NI themselves, both British and Irish - didn’t. But as nobody knew of the different definition that the person they were talking to was using, the discussion was full of confusion and misunderstandings for a while. Accusations of not knowing any history were thrown about etc etc😅

If one person is using the terms neurodiverse or neurodiversity to refer to variations in brains/the differences in how people’s brains work, while someone else is using it to mean solely to those who are neurodivergent, well, you can see how misunderstandings can arise. So thanks for drawing attention to that.

I didn't think my daughter had ASD either. She was a "normal" child and also communicated very well, and still does. She did have some quirks that I assumed were just part of her character but I was adamant that there was no neurodivergence.

My daughter was formally diagnosed when she was 28, two years ago. It was all rather an epiphany for me because it turns out I'm ND too (no surprise really when you learn it's usually hereditary) which explains why I missed the early signs and considered them "normal"!

I agree with a lot of other PP that it's very possible your son is ND. I'm sure you're aware that everybody presents differently (hence autism being referred to as a spectrum disorder) so whilst you may think you're familiar with autism because you've met several autistic people you're actually only familiar with those individuals.

I also agree that maybe homeschooling has contributed, at least in part, to the issues he's now having.

As well as pursuing an ND diagnosis there is lots of advice in this thread to follow (@Twistybranch has made some very good points) Good luck!