Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

Have your boys ever told him what they think? Often little boys idolise male role models as it sounds your DN enjoys their company a lot. It doesn’t sound like his father is around much to help reinforce the message.
If your boys were to turn around and say “Don’t do that again, it’s repulsive”, it would be dealt with there and then and he’d realise it’s not cool. At the moment he’s getting very mixed messages.
Or would that send your sister into a fit? She can’t have it all ways.

I agree the child is getting mixed messages from his parents and he also probably wants their attention rather than being left to do whatever he likes. Kids need boundaries and socialisation. Your sister's failure to give him boundaries is affecting his socialisation and it becomes a vicious circle. Next time you have to step and when she complains I'd tell her you're doing it because she isn't and she needs to step up and be a parent. She won't like it and will probably strop off, but she's not listening to milder explanations. It's not because he's 4, it's because he's not being shown it's not appropriate behaviour. Which you know, but she needs to be told bluntly.

There's another thing - she's always at your parents' place because she can't cope with him on her own. She's either not realised or lost sight of the fact his behaviour is because she's not discipling him. If she's wants an easier life she needs to do the hard work now.

OMG, you are not being unreasonable. Your sister and her husband sound like fucking idiots doing a good job of bring up another fucking idiot.

Your post reminds me of those TikTok clips where 3 year olds swear and give attitude. Vaguely cute at 3, a PITA by 6.

It's funny how behaviour used to be better when you could get a smacked arse

Not saying that approach is necessarily right, but we have swung much too far the other way.

I only mentioned my son's autism as my sister did.
I also said it wouldn't matter autistic or not no one would like their cake from their plate to be picked up eaten and then spat back out on a plate. In the corcumstance I am annoyed that my sister did not say anything and I was doing the right thing telling my nephew not to do that.

FloralGums
It’s so wrong to expect the teachers to sort this out. They are not there to parent children.

My reading was that people were not expecting teachers to sort this out. People were suggesting the DSis may have to take more notice when school (ie the professionals) start saying what the family have tried to tell her but has fallen on deaf ears so far

Definitely low contact. I think she’s got to realise for herself that this isn’t normal sadly, the more you mention it the more defensive she’ll get.

TBH I wouldn’t see her on Christmas Day- sounds like it will be an absolute nightmare as if he’s got behavioural issues he’ll be even worse with the sugary food/ pressure/ excitement! Just say that you’ve all had a tough year and you fancy a quiet one at home, but you’re happy to pop in (or for them to pop to you) on Christmas Eve/ Boxing Day for a drink. Or all go for a walk or something. Or could you say you’ve decided to go to your in laws on Christmas Day for a change. Or book a holiday in Spain!

I understand that you are avoiding the converstaion with your Dsis as you say she wont acknowledge or listen.

However that doesnt release you of the responsibility of having or starting that conversation. There are a lot of people close to you who are being impacted - your ASD child, your DM, DH, DF and your other DCs - your extended family will 100% disintegrate if you dont have the conversation - as your DM is not aligned. It might blow up temporarily if your Dsis flounces etc but for your DN, immediate and extended family words need to be had.

Plan carefully what you want to say - and what you dont want to say. Focus it compassionately on the needs of her DS. Speak to both parents together (maybe BIL needs to consider his absence/involement and think about changing his working pattern which might downgrade their lifestyle - but upgrade their quality of emotional family life and give their son best foundations for a sucessful life - ie friends / a social life and an education rather than a 3rd holiday.

This method describes how to plan for and give feedback compassionately.

https://worldofwork.io/2019/07/the-coin-coiled-feedback-models/

If she flounces off - send it to her in writing. No blame, or judgmental words - just clear evidenced observations - then expectations of her and consequences if not followed.

Your DF sounds great. Maybe he could do this with you - as a compassionate family intervention.

I wonder if the behaviour is also to get noticed as he seems to be seeking approval - maybe from his absent parents - both physically (his dad) and emotionally (his mum - because if she is round your DPs all the time she is not actively interacting with him).

Fucking hell you're a special kind of panderer aren't you?

I'd love to know how she thinks he will learn how to behave. Does she just think he'll get to a random age, and then suddenly know right from wrong? He's going to be a horror as a teenager if she doesn't step up and start parenting. I think you are right to protect yourself and your family. However I do think you need to try again to talk to her. Is there any chance of you meeting up with her without DC so you can properly explain your concerns?

100% agree with everything said by @NigelHarmansNewWife

My children and husband sigh if they hear he will be at my parents. They are pretty much always round there. We have started to invite them here instead and do events separately whereas we used to do everything together but we had too many days ruined by nephew being so badly behaved and my sister doing nothing.

I would do this over xmas and keep away from your sister. Sad as it is to avoid someone - if they are making what should be a nice occasion miserable due to their lack of parenting normal basic manners - thats how it will be if they refuse to control their child.

You manage situations so that you're not putting your dc into a difficult space with your nephew

What is more worrying is that the child is smiling behind their back, they know they have the upper hand and that is not going to be easy to change.

Of course four year old children sometimes behave inappropriately, no one is saying they don’t. The issue here is that the child’s parents respond to his behaviour inappropriately and inconsistently so the child is not learning how to regulate his behaviour. It’s a parenting problem.

I wouldn't want to be around a 4 year old who did the disgusting cake thing and also constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as your sister never says no.

He’s 4. Nothing you’ve described is out of place for a 4 yo who hasn’t started school yet

My 5 year old definitely knew not to snatch food off our plates when she was 4. And I don't consider her to have been particularly better behaved than average. It never happened when I went to children's 4th birthday parties and those had 3 and 4 year olds there.
And anyway, the key thing is the reaction - at 4 I would absolutely expect a parent to tell the child that that isn't ok. Not shrug it off as "he's only 4". I wouldn't let my 2 year old grab cake off my 5 year old's plate - I wouldn't tell her off or think she was naughty, but I wouldn't allow it.

You sound very fair OP.

I do think you and your dad need to have a chat with your mum and make her see that enabling your sister in this is not helping her or the 4 year old.

With your mum’s support maybe you can say something more black and white.

“Your DS behaviour is not ok, he is old enough to know better now. After he took and then out spat out my DS birthday cake I would have expected you to tell him not to do that, why didn’t you? You can’t excuse this behaviour when he goes to school so why not nip it in the bud now? My DS was very upset and your reaction was not helpful. We cannot be at mum and dads with you or have you over until the behaviour is in check and he stops hitting us and breaking our things. I love you both so it’s frustrating to see this behaviour when I know all he needs is some strong boundaries in place. This is also why I feel I can’t spend Christmas at mum and dad’s this year”

Yes it will cause upset but so will reducing contact because I’m sure it won’t go unnoticed. So why not rip the plaster off now!

I could understand the cake incident if the child was 2 but even by 2.5 children have a decent sense of right and wrong.

I will be honest in a situation like this I would text your sister and tell her exactly what you are finding difficult. His terrible behaviour and her attitude. i would be saying you are fed up of your son being hurt or having things broken because he is around and her doing nothing about it except making excuses is her
choice. I would say “meeting up in future will be in a neutral space until DN’s behaviour significantly improves”

I have three children. By 18 months they know what “no” means and by 2.5 there were consequences to ignoring and displaying. My son is just under 4 and would 100% know he he grabbed food of someone else’s plate he would be in trouble.

Another option is to ask them to leave ever
time there is unacceptable and unchallenged behaviour from him

See in that position I would just have sad yuck <name>, replaced my ds’s cake, and carried on. I wouldn’t have expected my DS to say anything or tell him off. He’s a kid. Kids do disgusting stuff. And if it had really upset my ds I’d pause the visits for a bit.

It sounds like the problem is this little boy’s parents - your DSis and her husband. Frankly, her husband sounds an absolute twit! Imagine laughing at poor behaviour and egging his son on - disgusting! It reminds me of an equally stupid father in a quiet local shop who was encouraging his two daughters approx 5 and 7yrs to walk around shouting BOGIES! really loudly and chase each other round other customers. How the idiot laughed 🙄 It was pathetic, and I felt so sorry for those girls.

Your DSis sounds like she’s not so much defensive about her child being criticised but about her own parenting. I’d talk to her, acknowledge she loves her DS and is trying to do her best for him, but also mention his twit of a father and how that must be making her job harder. I do think you need to explicitly tell her his behaviour isn’t normal - and also say that you know she knows that. Say you understand how hard it is but that you’re happy to help her and your DN because you love them very much.

It may have been normal for your kids to steal and eat people's cake and spit it back on their plate and constantly break things on purpose and laugh, hit everyone, shout and scream when told no by others as you never said no, but I can assure you it's not normal for 4 year olds who have been properly parented. Not normal at all.
Nothing you’ve described is out of place for a 4 yo who hasn’t started school yet
Sounds like you think it's the school's job to teach them not to do all those things. It's not, it's the parents

My DN’s have asd and have tried to beat my DSD up or smear poo on her during certain development phases, but now they’re in their 20s and DSD is basically the only friend they have as we managed the interactions kindly. So I know what I’m talking about. Seeing DN as an evil badly behaved child who needs to be cut off is going to do OP zero favours when he eventually grows out of the phase and her DS needs to spend time with him.

Jeez! Please tell me where you live so I can avoid it. Who are you associating with that let's 4 year old spit and steal food from plates!?

My son had his 4th party last year, he's one of the eldest so majority of friends were all 3yo even a few 2yos. We had the cake on a low table, all candles lit, 15 kids crowded round. Not one child blew out his candles or tried to spit or eat the cake until it was served. We sat them all down for their lunch and they all sat beautifully, shared all the treats. Yes dropped a lot on the floor but all unintentionally. No spitting, eating off of others plates or any issues.

Absolutely not normal behaviour for 3 or 4year olds.

I would tell me 2yo if she tried to eat off of someone's plate without asking.

Your sister will be sad when nephew goes to one birthday party but then is never invited to any others!

I'd avoid them, she just sounds lazy. Invite your parents round to yours for Xmas eve dinner? And maybe meet for a late Xmas day stroll?

Which is essentially what I did. I'm not sure why you think I'm not taking account of my child's needs. It's not a nice thing to do and you have to learn that it's not nice or you will do it again. I was annoyed that my sister said he's only 4 because that is what she says all the time no matter what the behaviour. When he's 5 will that be old enough to know not to spit food, punch and hit? How will children learn things aren't OK if they're not told?