Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

“MiddleParking · Today 10:39

She has always wanted the finest things in life and as a family they like to go on multiple holidays, have nice cars etc so BIL works super hard to provide that standard of living but does mean he is absent from family life a lot. My sister works 3 days a week.
As he gets older she’s likely to find that other families with similar lifestyles and values are also pretty hot on good parenting and behaviour aren’t going to be remotely willing to sacrifice their own kids’ comfort for hers. It would be much better for everyone’s sake if they gripped it now.”

This with bells on. As you know, this is not normal behaviour for a happy 4yo. It might be normal behaviour for an SEN 4yo or an unhappy 4yo. As someone suggested upthread, a serious intervention could be helpful.

And perhaps your sister needs to start experiencing the consequences of failing to provide her son with boundaries which is that she and he start to miss out on family occasions. Your sister may usually be lovely but failing to parent is not lovely.

I get your sister somewhat. It’s hard when your DC seems to be the odd one out. Our younger DD went through some real rough patches from a behavioural perspective when she was younger (different from what you describe but meaning she was regularly excluded socially) and we didn’t always handle them as we should have. But we did work on boundaries but we got a lot wrong, too. DD has since been diagnosed with autism and once we began to adapt for that, it was a big help.

@Sunshineandalltherainbows - just to add that you sound great. Hopefully with you, your DH and your father involved, you will be able to assist with a redirection.

I have spoken to her offered to support she pushes back every time says he's normal it's normal 4 year old behaviour and I'm being unkind for saying anything

would it be worth saying - yes its normal behaviour but your interaction with that behaviour is not helping him to be able to socialise and once he goes to school he will struggle and that is going to be a real shame for my nephew Id rather not see my nephew ostracised or find life difficult due to not having had the right instruction on how to behaviour at home. Its my nephew that will suffer not you

YOUR kids do disgusting stuff because you sound like a lazy disgusting parent. Why wouldn't you tell a 4yo off for stealing food and spitting?
I would have taken nephews cake off him as he clearly didn't like it.

My DN’s have asd and have tried to beat my DSD up or smear poo on her during certain development phases, but now they’re in their 20s and DSD is basically the only friend they have as we managed the interactions kindly. So I know what I’m talking about.

A non sequitur to beat them all.

@Ozanj you're doing a lot of projection and assuming here.

You have no idea if the DN will "grow out of it" .

You have no idea of OP's son's social skills and friendship circle.

One day , he might be his only friend isn't the threat you think it is either, especially if his behaviour doesn't improve because he's only 5/15/25.

This

He sounds like the kind of 4 year old no teacher wants in their reception class either, or the parents of the other children. Imagine he's going to be a nightmare when he starts.

Its not exactly telling off, its ‘no we don’t take other people’s cake, say sorry to X please’ - how else do you think a four year old will learn? Just suddenly wake up one day and understand? That’s never going to happen if an adult doesn’t teach them.

I know someone like this who never and I mean never told their child off when he did anything wrong, They literally stood by while he destroyed other children’s things or hit children and didn’t say a word. People started to distance themselves from them as their children were always upset when he was around. They are not doing their son any favours by not letting him know right from wrong, They say he’s only 4 but how confusing for him if all of a sudden at school there will be all these rules he’s supposed to follow that he’s previously known nothing about, The teachers aren’t going to laugh and say he’s only 4. And he will struggle to make friends.

Batshit crazy.

Nobody is blaming the child, they’re blaming the lazy parenting. Kids don’t just ‘grow out of things’ they need to be taught what the right things are, ignoring behaviour won’t make them stop.

This is not normal behaviour! Pretty sure most kids would be disgusted by what he did not just those with ASD.

have only read OP and only got this far

My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

What on earth is wrong with adults, family members at that, saying "no" to children that didn't spring from their loins?
Time and time again on mn people don't dare, or don't "allow", other adults - who are being affected by the child's adverse behaviour - to say anything to the little miscreant.

In a situation like this, relative or not, i will ALWAYS say "that's horrible, you should apologise". Any adult/parent who has an issue with that will get a reply from me along the lines of "ah, the apple doesn't fall from the tree. You're not parenting, so someone needed to step in"

Your sister and her husband sound like absolutely appalling parents. Life for their little boy will be very difficult if they don’t step up and teach him what is ok and what’s not. I definitely wouldn’t be spending Christmas with them but I think I’d be honest about why. I also don’t think your son’s asd has got anything to do with the cake thing- that is absolutely disgusting regardless. Kids need boundaries and will feel safer and happier with them in place.

He’s smiling when he does things like this because his parents laugh at his behaviour and film it. He thinks it’s something people will approve of - quite possibly the smile is him signalling “but it was a joke, people laughed before”.
4 is only old enough to generally have an idea about right from wrong if you’ve been consistently shown and taught about not hurting people. This poor kid can hardly know which way is up. Not his fault.

I have worked with children all my career and no, it is NOT normal 4 year old behaviour. He needs clear boundaries, not draconian punishments though.

If underneath he IS a normal 4 year old, he may adapt easily to school expectations once he settles down. But he will continue to behave badly in the company of his mother if she doesn't change her ways.

Personally I'd write a letter or email, and explain how you feel to your sister. You can choose your words carefully and pre-empt what you know her responses would be if you do this. Much easier than having a chat, and it may make her think.

Keep it factual rather than attacking her parenting, explaining why you and your family find it difficult to be around your nephew. Yes she might be very offended, but at the moment, she is causing issues for you.

The cake thing is absolutely not fine. On a good parenting day I’d have taken time to explain calmly that you don’t take food from other people and you certainly don’t spit it out, and I would have made it clear that if he did that again he would not be able to participate in the party, we’d have to leave or sit in the car. And I’d have stuck to it (I’ve sat outside a couple of parties with my kids until they were ready to behave).

No one is saying tear a strip off the kid, just that he’s old enough to start learning the basics of human interaction, and indeed that unless his parents start teaching him these now in a kind/ appropriate way actually it’s going to make things quite difficult for him longer term.

Even with SEN, most of the first/ early advice is around basic patenting- often you need to be able to explain that you are parenting well with boundaries/ consequences, but the kids are nonetheless having difficulties before medical professionals will really start to take an interest.

Completely agree I wouldn't have expected her to tear a strip off him just as you day what's right and wrong and not blame someone else or use age as an excuse.

When I have had nephew on my own to look after he is much calmer and is easier to be around. It's just he's always with my sister round my parents and he's very different. Nephew prefers not to be looked after by myself and my dad and prefers to be with my mum if he isn't with my sister.

Thanks for the replies. I think space for now with the door always wide open if my sister wants to speak or needs anything. I will try again but I need christmas to be calm.

Who on earth are the 2% who said this is unreasonable 😂🤔

Get her to watch this

www.instagram.com/reel/C_GD1NUshRM/?igsh=MXFtOTVhMGlrbjZoNw==

If she doesn’t get parenting advice now she’s only going to have more problems later. She sounds like a distant parent who expects their child to not get in her way with minimal interaction and focus from her and the kids dad. Tell her that you’ll only see her and family at her house. That way you can leave when you want and only her things get broken - tell her this as your reasons. Say as well that her kids behaviour is unacceptable and she needs professional help herself to get back on track with parenting her child.

Wow he sounds like a psycho in the making 😮 To slyly smile at an adult when he's got away with something. It's a bit concerning 😢

I wonder how your DSD as a young child has emotionally integrated these physical assaults and lack of protection - was her emotional development compromised? Any child would carry deep trauma from those experiences into adulthood.

I do hope your DSis isn't planning anymore DC @Sunshineandalltherainbows because your DN could be a real problem around a new baby.

Are you hoping your sister is on MN and will read this?

I would also suggest a clear and unemotional letter. Keep a copy yourself so that you know can prove exactly what was written in the event of a tantrum from her. Without the face-to-face (imagined) 'confrontation' element, your SIL might just begin to understand what you are trying to get through to her a little better 🤞