Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

I wouldn't class this as ridiculous. Going round touching women's boob's is very worrying behaviour. Sounds like a referral to social services would be the correct way to handle this because it indicates something untoward at home - exposure to inappropriate material or behaviour.

yes maybe BIL hasn't thought through what will happen when his son repeats these phrases at school. If he works hard then surely he'll want a good education for his son?

I just need to accept she's not in a position to hear or acknolwedfe what is going on.

The smiling when getting his own way or doing something wrong is something that we've all found difficult as before when he was younger we'd be of the he doesn't know any better where as he is signalling very clearly he knows what he's doing is wrong. However, he's a child and it is my sister that needs to do something.

My nephew actually loves my boys and they had always been very patient. He's never been easy to be around but he's ramped up his behaviour and they just don't want to be around him or have their things broken/give up stuff that they have/ be jumped on and have him kicking hitting and smacking play swords round their heads. Which is why we don't have them round tried to have limited contact but whenever we come round they are always there. We have even recently turned around when we've seen her car in the drive. The I feel bad but also sad because my parents was always a place to pop into. We just need to find a new normal for now.

What happens around the BIL family and their joint friends - or have they been cold shouldered there already - hence why always round your parents?

Why is the BIL not around a lot?

If she won't listen to you talking, you'll need to send WhatsApp or whatever other medium you use.

Explain behaviour is not acceptable, and he's is turning into a very dislikable young child (say turning in to as that softens the blow of 'he's an arsehole ') and need tougher parenting.

Some children do not respond as we would expect in these situations. My sister is neurodivergent. She has always laughed when she's anxious or stressed. So when getting told off, when being told sad news etc. When her favourite relative passed away when she was 9 years old her first response was to laugh.
Now she's in her 40s she's learnt different strategies, but as a child she went through hell.

My BIL works 6 days a week and long hours. Despite what it may sound like I do really love my sister despite her parenting choices so all of this is upsetting for me.
She has always wanted the finest things in life and as a family they like to go on multiple holidays, have nice cars etc so BIL works super hard to provide that standard of living but does mean he is absent from family life a lot. My sister works 3 days a week. Do nephew does 2 full days at pre school and 1 day with my parents.

A slightly different perspective: your DSIL is able to advocate very well for her child (oh he's only 4, telling you not to correct bad behaviour). Now, I don't agree with her of course, but she is good at 'standing up for' her own child.

You need to start standing up for yours: 'As you know, DS is autistic and a real trigger for him is food contamination - and to be honest, none of the rest of us love to see food being spat at someone either. To protect DS's peace and mental health at Christmas, we'd prefer to spend the day alone.'

You're teaching your own children to give up their own comfort for someone else. Now, to a certain extent, that happens all the time in families (no, we can't have a 15 film on in the background when your 10 yo cousin is here DS is a conversation I had only yesterday). But if you take a step back, you are asking your own children to do this to a much greater extent than normal.

You need to find your courage and actually advocate for your own kids here.

Poor nephew. He is behaving like that because he is getting such mixed messages about how to behave from his parents. There is nothing you or anyone else can do until they recognise this and start being consistent about what they expect from him, and working as a team.

I think the Christmas breakfast with your parents sounds like an excellent short term solution to your Christmas dilemma, you can meet up with your sister to do a present swap beforehand and do a zoom with your sister/BIL and nephew while you are all together.

I would have thought it’s obvious that there’s a possibility of ASD or ADHD, I don’t really understand why that hasn’t been mentioned in your family. At least as something to look into. Especially as ASD runs in the family.
I know the mumsnet answer is usually to go no contact but I think it would be a real shame to lose your relationship with your sister over this, although it doesn’t sound like you want that to happen.

My mum hates conflict and is just overly nice.

With supreme kindness, it sounds like you take after your mum.

This isn't going to get fixed by just being 'nice' and you are teaching your kids the same lesson as your mum taught you.

I really don't mean to sound horrible by the way, the world needs niceness! But not to the extent it's harmful to yourself or your own family.

I feel incredibly sorry for kids who are parented like this. Ruining your child’s social opportunities in the long term because you can’t be arsed to put yourself through the (at worst) minor discomfort of consistently directing and correcting their behaviour from the get go. And it doesn’t even make sense, because as a parent it’ll feel much more horrible for her when she eventually has to recognise that he’s a roundly disliked and avoided kid.

I think you’re all being unfair to exclude her. She needs support not pushed out.

I agree with viques

Your sister may get mad but she's either going to get over it or die mad. You may feel a bit upset at her being angry but you'll feel a lot better about your DC, husband, and parents having at least one reasonable meal on Christmas without someone spitting and breaking things. I would sort it out sooner rather than later so everything is settled well before Christmas.

If your nephew has ASD as well his parents are doing him a huge disservice. How can neurodivergent child of that age sort out what is correct behaviour and what isn't if he keeps getting mixed messages?

I would avoid my DC having to interact with a child that behaves like that too. Why should they have their things broken and celebrations ruined because their aunt can't parent. This isn't your nephew's fault and I think your sister deserves to be upset and angry. It might finally settle in that she needs to get a handle on his behaviour now.

This. I wouldn’t have a child like this in my house a second time. Your sister and her husband are failing their son by not parenting him and teaching him how to behave properly . He will be the child not invited to class parties, not asked on play dates etc. four is little but old enough to understand how to behave . The occasional tantrum is understandable at four, when tired and hungry etc. but spiteful and aggressive behaviour is not.
I had a friend whose sons were always naughty and rude, which went unchallenged by her. She isn’t my friend any more ! I edged out of the friendship after finding her son rifling through things in a bedroom, searching for a toy belonging to my dd (who wasn’t there) that he’d been told by me he could not have as it had been put away. He was about four or five. She didn’t say anything to him, didn’t tell him that he mustn’t look through other people’s drawers and cupboards, just apologised to him that I (subtext mean lady) wouldn’t let him have the toy.
Of course my dc were sometimes difficult or naughty at 4, that is normal, children are learning , but all the time, and in a deliberately goading and spiteful way is not normal. The cake thing is just horrible, your poor son.

My intention is not to push her out at all which is why I will be the one not going to my parents for Christmas Dinner. I would never tell someone they couldn't do something.
However, I can't have them round for Christmas breakfast.

I have spoken to her offered to support she pushes back every time says he's normal it's normal 4 year old behaviour and I'm being unkind for saying anything.

I'm ready to support her if she wants the support.

She has always wanted the finest things in life and as a family they like to go on multiple holidays, have nice cars etc so BIL works super hard to provide that standard of living but does mean he is absent from family life a lot. My sister works 3 days a week.

As he gets older she’s likely to find that other families with similar lifestyles and values are also pretty hot on good parenting and behaviour aren’t going to be remotely willing to sacrifice their own kids’ comfort for hers. It would be much better for everyone’s sake if they gripped it now.

fhe helpfulness of the chat may be based on how you go into it, which is why I’d go with more of a “dns behaviour at this age isn’t normal, do you need support? /do you think he has sen ?” Not “dns behaviour at this age isn’t normal and it’s down to you not parenting him properly.”

and it might be down to her not parenting him properly, but she might be more open to hearing what might work if she thinks it’s coming from a place of supporting her not criticising her.

I do think you can be honest as well, your children don’t like their things being broken and DNs behaviour upsets them, so until he’s grown up a bit, you think it’s best to not meet up with the kids.

Years ago I had a cousin who behaves as you describe your nephew. He eventually had ASD diagnosis.

Saw this happen with a distant relative. Son was a foul mouthed ill mannered wee horror tbh .He went to nursery she was suddenly appalled as saw the difference between him and others. Fair play to her she put a load of work in and told other family members that they wouldn't be seeing them unless they also followed the same rules .
Stick to you guns here and nothing wrong with light contact and my house my rules

This is hard to read.

Your little nephew is being seriously damaged by your sister’s and BIL’s extremely poor parenting and set up for a very difficult life. It’s a very good thing that there are other adults around who are trying to give him boundaries.

It sounds like your BIL thinks his son is a toy for him to play with, not a real little person. Is your BIL abusive? Is your sister being abused, do you think? She sounds so helpless and pathetic.

Also as regards your mum always being nice - in the context of a child who needs boundaries, always being nice isn’t a kind thing to do; it’s a cop-out. I used to be a people-pleaser: it was an eye-opener to me to realise it’s really a selfish trait. Your father is behaving responsibly; your mother less so.

Whatever the ins/outs of it, it's a complete shit show at the moment isn't it? And you're entitled to remove yourself and your dcs from it if you wish.
As a pp said, if your sister gets the hump and tantrums, let her tantrum. Actions have consequences etc And as another pp said, your dcs need to know they're not at the bottom of the pile and have to have their peace and enjoyment spoiled by DN's behaviour.

No part of my reply says the expectation is on the teacher to correct the child’s behaviour.

He’s 4. Nothing you’ve described is out of place for a 4 yo who hasn’t started school yet and your DC with asd is probably an easy target because they react in a way they find funny. I think rather than blame the child for behaving like a child you should manage your DC’s ASD in an appropriate way. If you know he doesn’t like his food contaminated / touched then celebrating his birthday with a 4 yo isn’t the best idea in the first place. Even a well behaved 4 yo will try to blow out candles and get spit everywhere.

Prioritise birthdays for your children’s friends & relax the extended family time until dn’s a bit older or school aged at least. Christmas you should give dsis first choice of having your dp as she has the younger child but make it clear having them all together isn’t working at the moment - you can have your dp another day and keep christmas for just your family.

Sorry missed that you’ve tried to talk to her.

then I’d go with “I don’t think this is normal for 4, but if you are sure this is just a phase, my children find his behaviour too much to deal with so let’s not do family meet ups until he’s outgrown it.”

I agree the best option is for you to remove your children and have Christmas with just the 4 of you /got to DHs parents, not exclude her.