Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

The only way she's going to be concerned about his behavior is if you tell her he is not welcome in your home.

@5iveleafclover I can understand that perception tbh.

I'm a mum to an ND lad. I wouldn't be ok with this behaviour at all. It's not about excusing it. Context does make a difference though.

It took me a very long time to ' see' what was going on with my son because he wasn't what I thought someone who was Autistic looked like. No delays,met every milestone, super popular, ( but also can be really disliked when there's a clash), lots of friends, sociable. It's only when you live it and then engage with multiple others you start to instinctively feel it, even on MN.

If the young boy has an Autistic PDA profile ( I'm sensing that very strongly) then the presentation is very different to one who is Autistic without ( such as OPs son).

I understand it's scary to think of kids going off the rails and being nightmares unchallenged and people on here understandably think everyone who says oh they're ND is an ineffectual wet lettuce parent.

Sister does need to sort this out because there's a massive chance nephew will go absolutely off the rails and be a vaping,.potty mouthed, gobby horror by 13. The risks of this are significantly higher in this group.

The genetics of this are also significant btw. ( OPs son is ND).

You're being really patronising with your posts. I 'live' it too and 'see' it. Where's all the parents of ND kids on this thread saying that their kids behave the same? I haven't seen any. 97% vote agreeing with OP. I'm sure plenty of the voters have experience of ND behaviours.

@5iveleafclover hey, include me in the 97% there!

OP is not unreasonable at all, I agree with her. I'd probably want to throttle the lad. I'd find that so difficult a situation to continually deal with in OPs position.

My posts, my tone, my explanations are perfectly reasoned, non aggressive and I hope clear. I don't mean to patronise anyone at all.

OP already knows her nephew is ND. She's brought it up herself already with her sister.

If this is because you are ND and find my reasoning personally offensive or patronising then I want to stress that wasn't my intent.

He really sounds like my daughter, she is neurodivergent and all the strategies in the world don’t work most of the time. It’s just her brain at the moment - she clearly feels compelled to throw and break things just for the sensory element of it. We try to put in strong boundaries, firmly tell her it’s wrong, re direct her, give her other things to throw instead but she just finds it all absolutely hilarious.

I can half imagine her doing the cake thing purely because she is so sensory and also has such little understanding of others feelings and explanations. She is a bit younger than your nephew but this phase is lasting a very long time.

it isn’t all to do with poor parenting. you can’t just magic your child to be a different person, especially if they are ND. Of course you already know every ND child is unique. Of course Your child’s needs matter so it isn’t okay that he is put in that distressing situation, but he will have very different behaviours and capabilities to another ND child. It doesn’t sound like there is much choice in the nephews behaviour at the moment but your sister should be taking responsibility, acknowledging the inappropriate behaviour, getting support where she can and showing that she is at least trying to implement some strategies that might help.

sounds like she is in a lot of denial.

OP. do have a look at PDA profiles. Your nephew sounds SO much like the boy I wrote about earlier - very clever, very self-aware and intelligent but utterly ruinous in the house if anyone dares cross him. He has also smashed more than one TV, Ipad, many toys, his entire bedroom, and has made his mother and his grandparents cry on many occasions.

But no concerns at school, so nobody is coming in to help. Mum is left alone to manage and is starting to be in fear for her life.

Completely disagree with this! I have a nearly 4 year old boy, this is not ‘normal’ 4 year old behaviour. My son definitely knows not to take food off of someone else’s plate, he knows not to put it in his mouth and then spit it back out again, he knows that it is absolutely not acceptable to hit people or purposely break things. At 4 years old they are definitely able to have an idea of what is right or wrong. BUT if they don’t know they should be educated that what they have done isn’t right and not for it to be brushed off as ‘he’s only 4’.

@Ozanj - this really isn't excusable by his being 4. At kindergarten at 2 and at home my DS understood that you don't take food off someone's plate and they don't take food off yours. A little boy in his kindergarten used to take food off others and then bite if he was stopped. He bit my DS once and he was then asked to leave. He may have additional needs but I was not putting my DS in harms way because of it.

As he gets older what happens then?

If you know he doesn’t like his food contaminated / touched then celebrating his birthday with a 4 yo isn’t the best idea in the first place.

What a load of rubbish masquerading as excuses! Who actually likes to have their food stolen from their plate, masticated by another person and then spat back onto their plate? People are so keen to blame the victim in all this. Those claiming it's normal behaviour for a 4 year old, is it also normal for a parent to allow this anti-social behaviour to continue unchecked? At what ago should a parent actually do something?

I know you want the magic words to make dsis and bil understand that their ds's behaviour isn't normal and they need to act like parents, but it doesn't seem likely to happen soon.

They decide what they do and what they believe and you decide what you do, and how you communicate what you believe. Tell them you won't be spending Xmas with them and their ds, and tell them why. Tell them their ds can't spend time in your home until they are willing to control him. If they get angry or whatever, let them, and don't back down. They probably won't see things your way at first - but that's ok. You can't control what they do, but you don't need their permission to set boundaries over YOUR time and YOUR home.

Probably nothing will change until ds is in school. Then, when they see that other kids and other parents don't want to be around him (and will say why), they MIGHT just start to see the problem, and take action. But just accept for now that they're not going to listen when it's coming from you. Stop talking, start acting, and wait it out.

I would turn down any request to spend Christmas together. If she asks why, say you want a quiet Christmas with your son this year. It would be best to wait a couple of years before you have a big family Christmas as her son 'is only 4'.

TBH it doesn’t matter if the nephew is autistic or not, he isn’t being parented and is a being allowed to behave in a way that causes distress and upset to others.

His mum and dad should be on him and making sure that his happiness isn’t at the expense of others.

OP, in your shoes I’d arrange times to visit your parents when sister won’t be there. If she is always there then you can only invite just your parents to yours.

When/if sister asks about seeing you do explain that until she has control of her DS, you won’t be seeing her. Let her know how much upset she and her son cause your family.

Sometimes keeping quiet isn’t the answer.

Another option is pre arranged stage management by you and your household - delegate one of you to play with / entertain your nephew for X time, then swap. Make sure that person has something they think he'll find exciting. And a pre arranged back up person for when they're getting too frustrated.

This can be a 'take one for the team's thing - knowing that you'll get to join in the adult/ teenager conversation later.

What's the family situation like and also his care in the week when his parents are working? My nephews were similar, they've calmed down a bit now the one has started school but they're often excused as 'boys will be boys' & still have a nasty streak to them. In my opinion they have a disjointed family life as parents often away, and stay away from home a lot they're lacking consistent grounded family life and have conflicting parenting styles all the time. I wonder if this is similar?

@Devonjaguar - sounds like it - wind-up merchant Disney Dad is only there to bring destructive and derailing 'parenting' once a week. Then seems he is in the care of the GPs one day a week where the GM is another useless unboundaried influence....the other days the lazy Mum rocks up to the GPs with him abdicating all parenting responsibility for him to run riot with zero intervention or guidance. He doesnt like to be with the GF or the OP

These 3 adults by their own selfish behaviour are selling this little boy short.

I wish I could say this was something I'd be willing to do but I need to be around for my own 2 children (although older) and I'm not prepared to do this every time.

You shouldn’t have to either. It’s for your nephew’s parents to step up! Having followed the whole thread, I can’t see what else you can do but gradually step back from interacting with your sister’s family, which is heartbreaking really, and as nicely as possible tell her why, if she asks.

I think I would like to keep communication open with her on a 1:1 basis, can you set up a regular coffee date for the two of you? No kids or partners?

Why would you take this on when she was so insulting to the needs of your child.

Also she likely wouldnt approve of any of your methods - has diaster written all over it.

Totally agree. My adult ds has asd/adhd and I was a single parent also dealing with his significant health needs. I refused to let him be ‘ruined’ ( his health condition was such that he needed to be kept calm and had the potential to make him into a v v spoilt child) so I parented him. I used to be told all the time that he was a very polite child. He didn’t understand why he was polite he just knew that I expected certain behaviour from him.
Is it easy- hell no but having asd or ADHD is not an easy to not parent.

Does nephew have a dad? What does he do/say?

Its really difficult. In a situation like that, I'd make plans to always meet at hers (so your sisters DS can trash his own house!) or meet somewhere neutral, like a park/play centre etc.

Eventually, your sister might have to be told a few harsh truths.

You have my empathy OP. My DSIS is similarly blind to my D nephew’s (6) undesirable behaviours and it particularly riles me when he hurts his sister (5) and my DSIS insists they each give as good as they get. This, despite the fact that DNiece has received head teacher awards for helpfulness and D nephew has had 2 temporary exclusions from class for bad behaviour!! He is better now than he was at 5 but I can’t say if that’s because my DSIS and DBIL have improved their parenting or because he is genuinely very clever and has worked out for himself that his sister gets asked to have play dates but he doesn’t. I love him and I make sure to tell him and give him lots of physical love when he’s calm but have set a boundary that I remove me, my DH, and my Dd (5) from his vicinity if he is being unpleasant. My DSIS sometimes gets offended, but he is starting to get it!!

My DD went to primary school with a boy like this. He was pretty bad from the off, By Y6 he was, frankly, an absolute thug - regularly assaulting staff and pupils, disrupting lessons every day.

I'd always wondered if there was some kind of condition beneath it contributing to the behaviour, however the main problem was the parents' attitude. They just wouldn't hear it, it was all made up according to them, boys will be boys, it's all harmless, he didn't mean it, he's only [insert any age between 4 and 11] etc etc. If the school wanted to put him through any assessments (I don't know if they did though) there was absolutely no point as the parents simply wouldn't engage with it all.

Sadly, I'm sure he will end up in jail at some point in his life.

Excuse

Her son needed a telling off for that, that is disgusting.

My BIL and SIL don’t come round our house with their child. He is the same age as my youngest but they are poles apart in terms of maturity and behaviour to the point both of my sons can’t tolerate him and stay in their bedrooms. He had ODD, I’ll use that term very loosely as there have been zero consequences or boundaries in place since day one and he is now completely off the rails and was diagnosed last year after an appeal following a permanent exclusion from school. BIL still has a play pen around his Christmas tree because nephew would have it ripped to pieces on the floor, just because. He’s pulled down curtains, demolished expensive LEGO sets, tormented and hurt our dog and the last time he came over he tried to bite and smack my DH. MIL just said she can’t tell him off because he’ll have a meltdown and it’s not nice for him so she also never does anything. We drop things down for him and have video calls but he’s no longer allowed in our house, it’s not ideal but we work hard to live as we do and we don’t want our pets terrorised, us assaulted or our things trashed, especially when nobody bothers telling him he’s wrong. MIL had our sons for tea last year and unfortunately nephew was there without any of us knowing. My eldest text his dad and asked for him to come and get them after 20 minutes because he’d bitten him. MIL took the side of our nephew because he’d had a bad day. It really is the pits when this happens, we find it easier to keep away.