Difficult situation with sister and nephew

[Sunshineandalltherainbows]

I feel really bad even writing this but I am finding my 4 year old nephew absolutely impossible to be around. His behaviour is poor. My sister must be struggling, says she isn't and it's all normal boy behaviour bit it's not. She often will say he's only 4. When he was she used to say he's only 3.

It's having a huge impact on my family's relationship with her.

For example, it was my son's birthday (who has asd) and we were all eating birthday cake round my parents. My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate. I said that's disgusting don't ever do that again. My son was in tears about it as he hates any form of contamination if his stuff. My sister then said I was wrong to say anything to nephew as he's only 4 and it was only a problem because my son's autism. I'm not being funny but anyone regards of needs would have been bothered about that happening to their food.

We've now been asked about Christmas plans and I just don't want to be around my sister and nephew. He constantly breaks things on purpose and laughs, hits everyone, shouts and screams when told no by parents as my sister never says no.

My parents are struggling too as they don't like their things getting broken.

If I ever mention anything to my sister about his behaviour she becomes extremely defensive but I just can't stand their company at the moment and I feel terrible for saying that. Not sure what to do further but limiting contact seems for the best at the moment.

You know that there is nothing you can do to change your sister's attitude to parenting. You also can't parent for her. But you can draw boundaries around your relationship with her and your parents.

You absolutely can say to your parents, "My kids and I find it too challenging to be around Sister and Son at the moment so we won't be coming around for Christmas Day. I don't want this to have an impact on our relationship or your relationship with my children so you can come here and obviously we would love to still come and visit you but we won't be able to do that if Sister and Son are there."

They don't have to say anything to her about it. They can choose the relationship they have with her. We need to put boundaries around our children's behaviour and teach them manners and how to function as good people. If we don't do that then we need to accept the consequences of it, including the fact that people will dislike our children and choose not to spend time with them. Your sister (unless she has a serious personality disorder) will connect the dots in time.

OP put your own family first and enjoy a quiet christmas.
Thats exactly what I am doing this year after hosting my entire family last year
It's not fair for your kids to have a rubbish christmas due to their badly behaved nephew
He may have additional needs ASD/ADHD but what SEN kids need is VERY firm boundaries
Speaking as the mum of an ASD boy aged 18 now, my sisters ASD son aged 11 runs absolute rings around her
Its very sad to say but I see very little of her now
Good luck and dont spend too much time trying to get her to listen to you, shes already ignored your concerns.

Is your BIL working long hours so he doesn’t have to be at home?

Can't stand ineffectual parents!

It's like they don't even realise it is their job to teach the child right from wrong. They don't just figure it out themselves, it requires active parenting and boundaries. It's not just lazy, it's selfish, as everyone else is left dealing with the little hellion (though I place 100% of the blame on the parents).

I would avoid her completely. And I would be viciously blunt about why.

Also, it is usually absolutely nothing to do with special needs, if anything the parents of sn children tend to put far more work in to helping their child navigate the world and understand their place in it.

We were sat in a gp waiting room once with a girl that looked around 9 absolutely tearing around the place, screaming and hitting her mother and swearing at the staff. The mother did nothing, just apologised in a wet blanket voice that her dd probably had autism.

I was sat next to my niece with actually diagnosed autism, who was sitting quietly but visibly upset by the commotion. She didnt like it one bit when I pointed that out and added that autism didnt mean not bothering with parenting. The mother went bright red and eventually wrestled the miniature drunken sailor out.

People like that should be embarrassed.

None of my 3 DC would have done this at 4.
They did lots of silly things but nothing like what OP has described.
Children that age need clear boundaries re-inforcing continually.

This. You need to be bluntly honest about why you're all reluctant to spend time with them. Could you talk to your mum about how her dd's inability to parent is causing a break up in the family and that she needs to get on side, and then all together talk to dsis. It might blow up, is the only thing. You could wait it out until he's in school and see if he either changes when he realises he's being a wally, or when dsis gets called into school all the time.

Either way, I would refuse to spend any time with the nephew until something changes

He might have additional needs, but the main issue is poor parenting. He needs rules/boundaries and intercepting.
@Sunshineandalltherainbows perhaps your BIL should go to a actual boxing gym, he'd understand how discipline comes first.
I've known little boys who are being let down and as said, they end up isolated and a victim of violence because of their behaviour (I don't blame the other children for having enough and smacking them one). The boys don't stand a chance. If it is SEN then it not being addressed until school, sets him back as well. Your Mum needs to understand that she is failing him, along with his dickhead parents.

The child's behaviour is appalling. Your sister's lack of discipline is equally shocking.

Avoid them this Christmas - a strong message needs to be sent, even though it may lead to discord.

The trouble with undiagnosed adhd is that traditional behaviour strategies are often wholly ineffective for children with adhd.

So when you see parents not disciplining with poorly behaved children it can be poor parenting. Or it can be undiagnosed adhd - the parents aren’t using the strategies they grew up with because they don’t work but haven’t learnt alternatives because they don’t know that they need to. In this case with a child also exhibiting the behaviour in a second setting plus a family history of neurodiversity my money would be on option number two.

If you can persuade her to try something else strategies which are often effective are reducing anxiety (let’s have a cuddle, go for a walk, have a bath) ; increasing movement (let’s do some yoga, let’s go on the trampoline, let’s build an obstacle course) and allowing more take-up time (I’m going to count to five and if you’re still hitting you’ll get a consequence).

ND is just no excuse. My dd has ASD and adhd I can still parent her. It takes consistency and commitment. The teens year will be horrendous .

I think either keep away like you’re planning or take her out for the day and ask if you can be honest with her and ask her to hear you out before speaking. Tell her you love her and nephew very much but find her lack of boundaries around his behaviour hard to manage and your boys don’t want to spend time with him. At least then she knows why you’re avoiding her. Offer to help her find some parenting courses or go with her to chat to a health visitor. If she declines and over reacts then you’ve said your piece and she will understand why she’s not invited places.

Sounds like your nephew’s dad is not home enough to lay down the law with his son and model appropriate behaviour. I am trying to imagine if my younger brother would have pulled that stunt with the cake. My dad would have lifted him up from the table, and we would have gone home immediately. When home, brother would have been sent to his room for a few hours, and then had to come over to the nephew at a later date and make an apology. 4 is old enough to know not to do things like that. When I went to elementary school, such behaviour would have gotten a paddling from the principal (not that I am advocating corporal punishment, but the behaviour was way out of line). You need to be direct with your sister and tell her her kiddo is out of control

It's a very valid point about school and ordinarily would be good part of call, to ask (gently) about her plans, but I think that you would be better off letting your parents say something to her. They see her more often and she may take it from them to maintain babysitting privileges.

It's much harder to hear it from you, with older children who don't seem to have these problems, she may be too sensitive to accept it from a sibling and think you are patronising her, especially if it's not carefully phrased. She could take it the wrong way and will resent it, it could then just be dismissed.

He will be going to school soon and will have professionals who have seen it all before. She's much more likely to listen to them. (Maybe there are parenting courses around locally that your Mum could suggest because her neighbour found them "so useful as prep for starting school" or something - or some relevant books. ) She might act affronted but if she secretly knows she needs help to prepare for school she may read them and pick up a few points.

I second pp's suggestion of meeting on neutral ground, Autumn Walks, zoos, garden centres etc. If he has a little bike. Play catch with him. It will keep him occupied and as my midwife once said to me "Everything is easier in the open air."
I also liked pps suggestion of having a little present, which would really be things designed to keep him amused during the visit to keep him occupied. It may seem counterintuitive, but it's a way of connecting with him, and keeping him busy at the same time.

Also agree with making your own Christmas plans and seeing less of them and steering clear from group gatherings in an enclosed place with breakables as it isn't successful.
Finally, due to your sister's lack of intervention, it sounds like you are all completely fed up with the little boy. But it's not his fault. It's his parents. Children see everything that is going on. He can feel the waves of disapproval because no one is allowed to say anything and Mum dismisses it, he's not hearing that its the behaviour they don't like and thinks that people just don't like him full stop. He probably does compare the very different way everyone speaks to your DC and the tone in which they speak to him. He's not happy in the group as a result and gets angry, cannot express it so he acts up even more. Hence spitting out the cake on your DC's plate...

Not being crass but tell your sister her son's behaviour screams very many special needs and go and check him if she refuses to parent him, the authorities will do it anyway lol, since this is what this country is doing anyway

I used to teach a child in reception who’d had a similar dad. While he was still at nursery his dad had taught him to run with one hand up to push into another child’s face to shove them out the way ( a rugby tackle I was told). He’d hurt several children so I was warned. He had a rough reception year, none of the other children liked him, wanted to play with or even near him.
Took a whole year of very hard work to get him anywhere approaching acceptable behaviour. There were no learning difficulties that I could see, no reason for his terrible behaviour other than his awful father.
Your dsis and her husband really are setting their son up for a miserable school life.

Can people please, for the love of sanity, stop trotting out "he may be ND/have ADHD/have ASD" every time there is a thread discussing a child displaying destructive behaviour/unkindness/selfishness/disobedience or just generally being a shit. (or a partner, parent, colleague....)

So what if any of these labels apply? They still have to be parented, disciplined and learn how to get along with others in this world. It's not some magical excuse. The OP had been pretty clear that the child understands his behaviour is unacceptable (the smiling after doing something); the mum uses his age as an excuse and doesn't apply boundaries or consequences. The dad fondly views his behaviour as "being a boy" and occasionally ticks him off but is largely absent. There is no indication of the mum not coping, she's just choosing to make excuses.

The OP should just do what she wants on Christmas day, but don't ask parents to hide breakfast invite, it's putting them in a position. If her sister asks/says anything just be honest - tell her the nephew's behaviour is intolerable to everyone and she's putting her own kids' enjoyment of Christmas first.

After all, the 4yo is likely to be 10 times worse on Christmas day - even the best behaved kids can be difficult then - he'll be a nightmare.

My nephew grabbed my son's cake of his plate put it in his mouth and then spat it out on my son's plate.

At 4 years old, a child (without SEN) should never be doing that. It is disgusting, bad manners, and naughty behaviour, and a child behaving like that should be removed from the sociable setting. Your sister is setting up her son to be shunned & disliked in social situations such as at school, and with friends.

YANBU. Your sister, however, is very unreasonable.

Sister, I have spoken to you many times and so have our parents about you making excuses for Damian's awful behaviour. When he behaves badly towards other children at school because you have enabled him and not taught him to respect others or their possessions, he is going to be one very unhappy child with no friends. This Christmas we are not going to invite you and have another get together ruined because he is downright nasty to everyone and you do absolutely nothing to stop him or remonstrate with him.

@redalex261 the ND factor makes every difference imaginable here. It impacts everything - including why the kid is smiling. It might even explain the sisters approach. ND is highly genetic ( I don't know the % inheritance but any good assessor these days will look at the parents to see which parent is probably also ND).

I'm more confused as to why there's such a strong backlash when people highlight very obvious ND issues on here.

It doesn't mean the kid isn't a total nightmare or that OP can't change much right now. Context however is everything in order to enable OP to consider her position and what's right for her and her family

What TV programmes does he watch ? Some of them have the characters displaying quite ugly behaviour .

What impact do you think the context that he might be neurodivergent would/could/should have on OP’s consideration of her position and what’s right for her family?

Has she ever paid for anything he’s broken? I hope so, but doubt it. And have you told your dm that you’ve turned back from visiting her having spotted they’re there. You should. And if she refuses to see you separately ask her why your kids should suffer?

How were things when you were young? Was sister the golden child?

Why does every single thread on a badly behaved, poorly parented child have people excusing it with “But special needs “

It’s weak parenting , especially if you read that Damien’s father finds the behaviour amusing, and encourages it.

So your nephew's father (your BiL) is part of the problem. And we wonder how toxic masculinity is created - here's an example in action.

I suppose you might start just wondering also about how much your BiL dominates your sister - is there the ghost of abuse there? Your BiL sounds a right dick, who might not think twice or be bothered about bullying his wife (your sister). If she's being in any way abused (I'm not saying she is, but her husband's behaviour is not great), that might explain her helplessness with her son. She may feel that boy's are inevitably selfish and badly behaved.

And good for your father, in showing that not all men are selfish and badly behaved.

Because the parents find this amusing points to special needs/mental confusion/lack of understanding what social norm is into both parents. So all that is special need already, left unobserved by the authorities which is given to the children