To think my friendship will need to end due to Israel/Palestine?

[VioletW]

I've been close friends with a Jewish woman for ten years. We went on lots of trips together, lived in two different countries at the same times, been there for each other through all sorts.

Anyway since she moved I see her once or twice a year, the second time usually being Christmas. She always looks me up at Christmas and I'm anticipating the same this year.

My position is that I disagree with the October 8 attacks and also what's happening in Gaza is horrific. I've been to demonstrations about this, even bumping into two other Jewish friends at these.

I've seen my friend posting online that these demos are 'Anti Israel'. All of her posts are in support of fighting anti semitism and she has never posted about Palestine, although she works for a humanitarian organisation. AIBU to think this simply ends the friendship?

We had some friends whose friendship we walked away from after they had a rant about refugees, etc, on a night out. So I do think that, sometimes, there can be issues like this where you feel like you're no longer comfortable with a person because of the views they hold.

I can't tell you whether this person's views on Israel/Palestine reach that level, because that's down to you and your views. By the sounds of it the relationship you had with this person was previously quite good, so I'd think you'd want a high bar before discarding it.

I think your friend would be well rid of you.

I couldn't be friends with somebody who supports genocide. I have lots of friends who don't believe the same things as me on other topics, such as friends who are muxh more right or left wing than me. I find we don't talk politics and it's fine mostly, my ideals aren't so fragile they are threatened by a difference of opinion. However I find anybody in support of mass murder to be so morally reprehensible that they are not worth my time. I don't feel comfortable having them around me. I don't have to speak to these people so I won't.

Where did OP say her friend supports genocide?

The demos are grim. Just imagine how you would feel as an entirely innocent Jewish person living out a normal life in the UK. Nehenyatu is nothing to do with you, and yet these constant demos are intimidating you in your own town, just because of your religion.

That's just a lazy slur for anyone who hasn't decided that all the blame lies entirely with Israel. The anti-genocide people aren't so active and vocal in condemning Hamas and their clear genocidal intent for all Jews though. Even despite their filming themselves saying ' where are the Jewish dogs?' as they looked for Jewish men, women and children to butcher on October 7th.

I would take them seriously in their moral ' I'm against genocide' positioning if they were as vocal in condemning the genocidal intent of the Palestinian Hamas supporters.

Arab Muslim populations have actually increased in Israel during the decades of its existence, by the way. This has not happened for Jewish populations in Palestine during the same time period. There are no Jews in Palestine.

I agree.
I’m upset about antisemitism and I’m not even Jewish. I can only imagine how Jews feel about it.
Tbh she will probably be better off without a “friend” who is ready to drop her for being and acting like a Jew.

I am Jewish on my dad's side. I don't think of myself as Jewish but it is a big part of my heritage. I do believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. I also believe that the actions of Hamas on 7 October were war crimes and crimes against humanity.

However, I do believe that the Israeli government is committing genocide.

The UK government should stop providing weapons to Israel.

Netanyahu and his messaianic right wing government do not think Palestinian civilians are human beings. They have killed most of the leaders of Hamas but continue with the bombings. Who knows what the end game is.

It is entirely understandable that your friend is worried about the rise in anti-semitism since 7 October. However, I would hope that she doesn't approve of the actions of the Israeli government. That could be a deal breaker for your friendship.

Thanks for sharing this. It was very thought provoking. This is a debate I can see both sides of. I do, however, think Orla came across better in this in terms of accepting fault on both sides and really examining the issue, whereas I found Christine much less willing to consider it is anything other than the fault of Israel. I wonder how others found it in this sense.

I couldn’t countenance this either.
awful antisemitism.

How else do you suggest people express their outrage and also support for Palestinians?

I have stated above that two of my Jewish friends were at one of these demos so this clearly does not apply to all Jews.

I'm sorry if it makes Jewish people upset but the majority of people at these demos want the devastation in Gaza to end as supporters of and justice. They aren't out on the streets to attack Jews or commit violence. To say that people on these demos are anti semitic is plainly wrong in the majority of cases.

For the record I emotionally supported another Jewish friend for some time after the October 7th attacks as she was very upset.

She is still upset but also doesn't support Netanyahu

How else do you suggest people express their outrage and also support for Palestinians?

Perhaps by having banners and placards calling for the release of the hostages? Banner condemning Hamas and the blood shed they have caused? You know, something to show this march supports victims on all sides and recognises that Hamas ended the ceasefire and started a war. You know, something that showed this was not an anti-Israel, anti-semitic thing, but recognised the humanity of all the victims.

They aren't out on the streets to attack Jews or commit violence Do you honestly think that this is the only form of anti-semitism?! You don't think tearing down posters of hostages is anti-semitic? You don't think cries of ' no zionists here!' is anti-Semitic?!

What do you think would happen to someone who joined the marches with a placard calling for the release of hostages? Or with a sign saying 'Hamas are terrorists.' A woman was removed by police for walking alongside a march with such a banner as that was seen as ' provocative'. How is it not anti-Semitic that someone could not safely join a march about the conflict calling for release of hostages or saying Hamas are terrorists, even though they are? I'm sorry, but whatever you think the marches are about, the fact that people could not march with the banners I describe shows that they very much are populated with people with deeply anti-Semitic views.

I guess it depends if you can be friends with people who have different views to you. Why don't you just not discuss this with your friend and agree to disagree?

She's entitled to be worried and scared considering what happened last time the world became anti-Semitic on a large scale.

Do your poor friend a favour and ghost her, seriously. If she’s posting things about anti-semitism or pro-Israeli content (and by that I mean anything that isn’t condemning Netanyahu or isn’t pro-Palestine) then the last thing she needs is to get into an argument with someone she considered a friend who thinks she supports genocide.

She isn’t going to meet your standards for friendship so just cut her off. you are fundamentally incapable of being her friend as you cannot support her when she needs it because your political affiliations mean you find her problematic at best and repugnant at worst. Being honest, you think anyone who is on The Other Side is an awful person, don’t you. What would she need to say to make you happy? That Israel is committing genocide? That they need to stop occupying Palestine? That they’re colonising nazis? What hoops would you want your Jewish friend to jump through.

There isn’t going to be a two-state solution as Palestine doesn’t want one. They want to eradicate Israel and all Jews. They’re still going after Hamas even after taking out the leadership because there are still Hamas operatives trying to kill Israelis. Yes civilians are being killed, but it is a war and that happens. It’s awful and tragic and futile but it happens. Hamas leaders have openly stated how they are willing to sacrifice the Palestinian people to fulfil their aims of eradicating Israel. Palestinian mums have said they want their children to become martyrs. Does Israel change the minds of future generations of Palestinians by bombing them? No. Are Palestinians going to stop attacking Israel? No. Is this going to go on for years to come and are thousands more people going to die? Yes. Everyone wants peace in the ME but we’re not the ones wondering if tonight is the night we’re going to be killed by a rocket and that applies to both sides. Hamas is a murderous terror organisation and Israel is expected to sit down and negotiate with them. How do you negotiate with someone whose starting position is to want you dead?

Instead of being repulsed by her awful views, maybe listen to what she has to say. If your response is “but that’s just not true…” then just don’t contact her again. She’s got enough going on without having to deal with your judgemental condemnation.

Oh, and how about organising a nice demo for the Yazidis? You could try expressing your outrage at 11 year old girls being sold into sexual slavery and show your support for the 2000+ still missing by going on a nice protest march for them. From the river to the sea Yazidis will be free…no? If not the Yazidis there are plenty of other brutalised groups you could support apart from just Palestine.

@gladrefrain Hamas are terrorists so I'd hope someone carrying such a placard wouldn't be attacked.

They certainly wouldn't be by any of my friends or family who go on these marches.

Does the Netanyahu government have your full support in what they are doing in Gaza, the Lebanon and the West Bank?

Do you think that he is doing his best to get the hostages released?

I do think that your statement that 'Yes, civilians are being killed, it's a war and that happens' sort of glosses over the horror of what the Israeli army has done to Palestinian civilians, particularly women and children.

As you don't think that the Israeli government should enter negotiations with Hamas, what do think the end game is?

If you are worried about her rejecting you - I personally wouldn’t assume that just because you go on those marches that you agree with the minority of protestors who have said and done some horrifically anti semetic things - she may well feel the same way. I wouldn’t personally associate with a protest that contained those views but I understand other people choosing to without being anti semetic. By contrast, her posting on anti semitism is at least partially her posting on her own lived experience as a Jew which is something you should at the very least if you are a decent friend be open to understanding as frankly if you haven’t experienced it you don’t know what it’s like. However, it sounds like this isn’t you worrying about her rejecting you based on your views but is instead you rejecting her because of hers. In which case she’s probably better off without you as a friend.

I'm worried about both.

We've talked about her worries before all of this. I've been a good friend to her over the years and vice versa, for the record.

I personally would not choose to show my sympathy for the Palestinians by joining a protest where people hold placards calling for the removal/destruction of every Jewish person between “the river and the sea” (which is what you chose to do) anymore than I would join a march against anti-Semetism where people held signs calling for the destruction of the Palestinian people (which it doesn’t sound like she has done). However, that’s your call and I find most people in the UK can still accept differences of opinion like that with their friends and there is a difference between seeing the protests as fundamentally tainted and so anti-Semitic and believing everyone who attended is an anti-Semite.

Isn’t Zionist just someone who believes in the creation of the Jewish state of Israel Surely to be anti Zionist is to be against the existence of Israel?

1. No it does not
2. I don’t know what his plan is to release the hostages but I know there is no solution that would satisfy everyone. How do you get hostages back from people who hide in tunnels under a densely populated area? How would you get the hostages back? How many of them are still alive? Do you think Hamas would have handed over the hostages if Israel had agreed to their terms? Should Israel just ask nicely?
3. Wars are horrific. They always have been. This particular one is being broadcast live so we are seeing what goes on. What do you want Israel to do? Hamas spent years constructing a military infrastructure underneath the civilian population. They knew exactly what Israel’s reaction to 7/10 would be and stil they carried out their attack. Why couldn’t Hamas have shown some proportionality and sat down with Israel to find a non-military solution? I have seen footage of Palestinian civilians saying Hamas is basically blocking them from leaving the areas the IDF have said they are about to enter. I have seen footage of civilians blasted to bits. I have seen footage of piles of food being discarded and aid trucks being hijacked.
4. I absolutely do think Israel should have negotiations to find a solution but I totally understand why they wouldn’t. The end game is getting two sides who are totally entrenched in their positions to move enough to tolerate each other without killing each other. In my view, if Hamas puts down its weapons peace can be found. If Israel puts down its weapons, thousands will be killed. If 15,000 British people had been killed in a single terror attack, disarming and negotiating with the attackers would be the last thing I’d want them to do. I’d want to know that if men with guns were hunting me and my family down, there would be soldiers there to protect me. The end game for both sides at the moment is staying alive. Western governments calling for proportionality and restraint and calling for ceasefires are completely missing the point. It’s Israel against Hamas, Hezzbollah, Houthis and Iran. Hamas want a ceasefire without handing back the hostages and Israel aren’t going to ceasefire without getting the hostages back. UN can’t help. They’re already in the region and have proven themselves to be utterly useless as peacekeepers. They’ve sat in Lebanon watching Hezbollah prepare their terror infrastructure structure for an attack bigger than 7/10 and did nothing. They’ve admitted that they couldn’t investigate private property which shows they knew civilian properties were being used by Hezbollah. Israel goes into the area and gets criticised for attacking civilian buildings. Maybe stop dragging bloody civilians into war. Israel has had rockets fired at it from Gaza, Lebanon, Iran & Yemen for over a year. Have they all stared a war too? What do you want Israel to do about Iran firing missiles at them? Switch off their air defence system?

There isn’t a solution for the foreseeable future. What Hamas perpetrated on 7/10 has scarred the Israeli people probably for generations. What Israel has done in response will have undoubtedly done the same to Palestinians. How do you reconcile the agony and trauma that both sides have experienced? Add into that the complete disconnect in each sides’ stance on what happened during all the familiar dates in history and it’s impossible. How far back do you go? 10 years? 20? 400? 3000? The region is soaked with the history of hatred and intolerance and acceptance and appreciation. It has to be the oldest and newest problem we have. There will be no solution until both sides can sit down and talk and they’re not going to be able to that until the threat of being killed by their neighbours has been removed. Getting to that point is currently unforeseeable.

OP, I feel for your friend and believe you are wrong on this. As a Jewish person, your friend is rightly concerned about antisemitism. This is part of her history and I would be worried in her circumstances too. I believe it’s pretty widely known that the pro Palestinian protests are, at best, worryingly indifferent to antisemitism and, at worst, antisemitic. I witnessed firsthand individuals celebrating in London on 9th October, before any major retaliation had been launched by Israel. It was disgusting.

Why aren’t there protests in London against the mass genocide in South Sudan which recently occurred? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cw4dk2kzy5wo.amp

Why aren’t there protests in London against the apartheid of women in Afghanistan where women can’t even allow their voices to be hears in public, let alone access education or work.

What about the genocide of the Uyghur people in China? No protests about this. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights

I think your friend deserves some understanding and not your judgment.