To think my friendship will need to end due to Israel/Palestine?

[VioletW]

I've been close friends with a Jewish woman for ten years. We went on lots of trips together, lived in two different countries at the same times, been there for each other through all sorts.

Anyway since she moved I see her once or twice a year, the second time usually being Christmas. She always looks me up at Christmas and I'm anticipating the same this year.

My position is that I disagree with the October 8 attacks and also what's happening in Gaza is horrific. I've been to demonstrations about this, even bumping into two other Jewish friends at these.

I've seen my friend posting online that these demos are 'Anti Israel'. All of her posts are in support of fighting anti semitism and she has never posted about Palestine, although she works for a humanitarian organisation. AIBU to think this simply ends the friendship?

Well as previous poster said ' Have you not heard of Pakistan? Bangladesh? South Sudan?*

Perhaps you are not also aware of the origin stories of Modern America, Australia and Canada, and what was done to the native people there?

Perhaps you are not aware of the large numbers of muslim arabs who live in Israel with full legal rights and equality as well being elected reps in their Parliament?

You have a remarkable naivety about the people you are marching alongside.

Your Jewish friend does not have the luxury of that naivety.

The police who removed the woman carrying such a placard alongside the pro-Palestinian march did not have the luxury of your naivety either.

While I have no doubt there are many people who genuinely care about the plight of innocent Palestinians, the marches and protests are a good excuse for some racist thuggery. Unfortunately these type of protests do invite those with bad intentions. To ignore this is plain ignorant and very naive. It’s not the majority but it’s not the minority either.

I am not a particularly big fan of these marches and protests and think they invite antisemitism. For that reason, I do not support them. It doesn’t mean my care and concern for the people of Palestine is any less. It means I think protests can be harmful. That’s my own view.

The poster I was responding to didn't understand why people would be against the foundation of Israel, so I explained.

Had she been talking about other countries, I would have spoken about them. I understand that you think ethnic cleansing and massacres are an inevitable part of establishing a country and therefore what happened with Palestine was acceptable, I disagree.

Are you including the thousands of prisoners imprisoned in Israel without charge as having full legal rights as well? They're being raped and tortured which according to certain members of the government, is acceptable.

People have developed complete Israel/Palestine Derangement Syndrome.
The situation there is complex and has a long history going back to the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century, predating the formation of Isreal as a Jewish state. Has Isreal behaved abominably? Yes. Have Hamas (and by extension Hezbollah, both funded and egged on by Iran) behaved abominably? Also yes. This is not a simple situation for which simplistic black and white thinking can be applied. I also dislike how people in other parts of the world are getting worked up about it when they’ve made barely a peep about other, equally bloody conflicts or other countries terrible actions. Sure, boycott Israel, fill your boots, but are you also boycotting China over its genocidal treatment of the Uighur people? Are you protesting Isreal while mindlessly chanting ‘From the river to the sea’ with no knowledge of its antisemitic context while wearing a cheap keffiyeh with a ‘made in China’ label, not giving the side eye to some of your fellow travellers and their darker motivations? Are you supporting Israel while failing to accept that Israel’s, and by extension America’s, own actions over the last few decades have directly contributed to making the situation as incendiary as it is?
I’ve seen it said that it’s somehow cowardly to say ‘it’s complicated’ and not take sides, I think it’s reductivist to think there is a black and white, goodies and baddies, stance that can be taken without at least looking into the wider historical context, as that will be essential if this conflict is to be resolved without it spilling ever further across the Middle East, at the cost of ever more lives.
As to the OP and her friend, I suspect both of you may have overly simplified views on the matter, and that if this is the only thing you disagree on, then throwing the friendship away for that is foolish. This is what tolerance is all about, and a bit more of that, true tolerance, would go a long way to improving the world.

I dunno OP maybe she feels an innate connection with the mothers in Israel whose babies were beheaded simply because those babies were Jewish and wants to support them or perhaps she feels for the families of the young women who were raped and murdered or those people taken hostage.

Maybe she feels like Hamas are a bunch of murderous terrorists who despite being supported by many in the West would tear down western culture and values in a heartbeat.

Maybe you should ask her. If you are a friend maybe you should listen to her point of view annd respect it after all she is the Jewish one with skin in the game. If she had been cowering under a desk in Israel last October, the Hamas terrorists would have shot her to death with no mercy just as they did the two unarmed women trying to hide from them. Their deaths were caught of camera. The Hamas gunmen paused only to move chairs out of the way to callously gun those women down.

Hamas are monsters. They sent out a small army intent on destroying as many lives as brutally as possible. Their stated aim remains to murder ALL Jews. Israel has the right to self determination.

I hope your friend gets all the support she needs from others who understand the trauma Jewish people are feeling.

Yes there are limits. Such as targeting civilians such as Hamas did on October 7th.

And there are also limits, such as not denying atrocities to shore up your position. Yes Hamas are so lovely that they alone respect women in warfare, by only murdering them but nothing more. They are unique in that respect. Because they are special. ISIS probably never raped Yazidi women either. Or are they not special enough for such purity @Blueraindrops12 What about the rescued Yazidi women from Palestine? Were they just house servants but not raped because Nothing That Bad is ever done by a Palestinian man?

Its quite satisfying that you can recognise how horrific what Hamas did was, so horrific that you realise it provides justification for Israel. And that's why you have to pretend Nothing That Bad happened on October 7th.

I am sure you are being completely genuine and spend a lot of time talking about the awfulness of the origins of other countries and probably spend time organising marches to raise awareness. I am sure it is not just Israel you have a beef with. I am sure there are loads of threads you criticise other countries on and its just a coincidence that I only notice your name on thread after thread attacking Israel.

You probably spend loads of time criticising the many human rights abuses in Palestine too, and its just coincidence I have never seen those posts either.

What do you mean that there were no rapes of Jewish women on 7 October?

There are and have been protests on all of those other issues though?

The Palestine ones have just been in the news more and better supported.

Perhaps because people feel the UK has more influence over Israel, or that it's known they supply weapons to Israeli army, or it's just bigger in the media, or that Israel's attack is seen as anti-Muslim. I'm not sure.

I can imagine it was the same during the Rwandan genocide. The Hutu wouldn't be able to understand why anyone could support the Tutsi because they'd been systematically dehumanised.

Hutus would disparage attempts to raise awareness of the plight of the Tutsi, probably calling Westerners racist for criticising them. They'd wonder why you were so bothered about vermin the world would be better off without.

They'd tell you that you had a 'beef' with them and that they were being unfairly singled out when other atrocities were going on. (Look over there!). Marches against their atrocities would be labelled 'hate marches' and racist.

When you point out ethnic cleansing they'd say, it happens in other countries and shrug.

I don't see why you should stop being her friend because you fundamentally disagree on a political issue. The Israel/Palestine issue has been a complete mess for decades and is very far from black and white. I don't think you would find any one of the "middle east experts" who wholly agreed with another "middle east expert" let alone Joe Public managing to reach agreement.

TBH this whole mess appears the result of people being unable to respect or tolerate others with opposing political views. For the past 80 bloody years.

Just talk to your friend about other issues and embrace whatever common ground you have.

Is OP denying Hamas is a murderous terrorist organisation? I missed it if they did.

It is surely possible to call for an end to the war, and to the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Palestine (and the possible starvation of millions more), while agreeing Hamas is a terrorist organisation and empathising with what Israeli people must have suffered during that attack and since.

”I disagree with the October 8 attacks”

I feel disagreement is far too weak a position to take against such atrocities. Anything less than abhorrence regarding these pogroms implies ambivalence.

I said in a previous post that the atrocities committed by Hamas on 7 October were war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I am still asking what the end game will be if negotiation as an option isn't open to Israel. I presume that you don't think a 2-state solution is possible? Will Netanyahu carry on bombing Gaza until he is satisfied that all members of Hamas have been killed and then re-occupy Gaza?

The world was rightly horrified at what happened to innocent Israelis on 7 October and is rightly horrified at what is happening to innocent Palestinian civilians, particularly women and children right now.

Except no-one is shrugging. That is lie you have made up.

When people point out the fact that the origins of many modern countries is brutal, they are not saying they think this is ok, as you are grotesquely characterising them as doing. Instead they are very clearly making the very obvious point that people ONLY have a problem with the bloody history of Israel but not all, or indeed any, of the other countries.

But that I guess that is a harder point for you to address, so its easier to just mischaracterise those disagreeing with you so you can mock them.

I completely agree with you that people should be horrified with what happened to Israelis on October 7th ( though disagree with you that the world is horrified, I have had far too much experience, including in real life, of people who are not horrified but are denialists, minimisers, think the Israelis deserved it, or actively rejoice in it) and agree people should be horrified by what is happening to Palestinian civiilians, and lebonese civilians.

I clearly have no idea what Netanyhu will do, nor what he should do or should have done. I am not a war strategist. I have no idea what the solution is for the ME but a peaceful solution now seems less likely after October 7thm which is presumably what Hamas were aiming for.

My position is that I don't agree that Israel is the cartoon baddie in this with all the responsibility. Hamas deliberately started this latest round of conflict in a particularly deliberately horrifying way and they hold responsibility for the consequences. Rockets are continually fired at Israel. Israel is defending itself against a particularly appalling enemy who does not want a peaceful solution but their total destruction. I do see the portrayal of Israel as the total and only bad guy n this conflict as anti-semitic, because that portrayal is so clearly not accurate.

Is that the point they were trying to make?! I'm so used to the excuses and apologism that I automatically assume it's being used as a distraction.

Some of the mental gymnastics has been interesting. They're all terrorists! What about the children? They like sacrificing their children and Hamas train them as terrorists.

What about the women? They're the wives and daughters of terrorists! What about vital infrastructure? Terrorists hide in hospitals, refugee camps and schools.

People are starving. The terrorists are taking the food. Civilians are being indiscriminately targeted. Terrorists hide amongst the civilians! You're shooting children. Children are terrorists!

The UN is accusing you of genocide. The UN is antisemitic! They're terrorists! You're committing ethnic cleansing. Other countries do too but you don't have a problem with them. You're on the side of the terrorists!

The occupation in Palestine has been found to be apartheid. How can that be?! Arabs have equal rights in Israel.

I don't see Israel as the total and only bad guy in this conflict as Israeli citizens and Israeli politicians have very different opinions on this war and on the Netanyahu government.

I do see Netanyahu and the extreme right wing and messianic members of his government as bad guys. I do believe that Netanyahu is totally corrupt and needs this war to stay in power and out of prison.

Well then our positions don't appear to be that far apart.

Can you do one like that but for the other side?

Of course a 2 state solution isn’t an option. Hamas wants to wipe out every Jew in the world, not only Israel.

Day to day, the average Israeli citizen would live alongside anyone if there was a 2 state solution. I am almost afraid to admit I am an Israeli Jew who spent most of her formative years there. I am happy and settled and consider myself more British now. I am absolutely categorically opposed to the actions of the Israeli government. Yet, people on social media assume you’re evil purely for being born to Jewish parents or being born in a country.

Evidence for this statement? Hamas wants to wipe out every Jew in the world, not only Israel.

OP you are completely justified in ending this friendship. Supporting genocide, whether overtly or tacitly with lots of hand wringing as we see here, is a deal breaker for any relationship.

For anyone wondering why, go online and see the evidence before your eyes, children carrying other children’s shredded bodies, tens of thousands of orphaned infants and children left to fend for themselves in a brutal war zone, a region where food and water is not being allowed in. Children killed every day by sniper shots to the head. Anyone not speaking out against this can GTF.

As for why it’s being protested in this country while other genocides aren’t - because the UK is directly supporting the genocode by providing arms, political cover and legal cover. It’s not fucking rocket science.