To think my friendship will need to end due to Israel/Palestine?

[VioletW]

I've been close friends with a Jewish woman for ten years. We went on lots of trips together, lived in two different countries at the same times, been there for each other through all sorts.

Anyway since she moved I see her once or twice a year, the second time usually being Christmas. She always looks me up at Christmas and I'm anticipating the same this year.

My position is that I disagree with the October 8 attacks and also what's happening in Gaza is horrific. I've been to demonstrations about this, even bumping into two other Jewish friends at these.

I've seen my friend posting online that these demos are 'Anti Israel'. All of her posts are in support of fighting anti semitism and she has never posted about Palestine, although she works for a humanitarian organisation. AIBU to think this simply ends the friendship?

This is a really tricky one. Friendships like these can and do survive, but probably only by ignoring the elephant in the room i.e. by agreeing to steer firmly away from any talk about politics and religion. Whether you can respect her despite her views is something only you can answer. It might help if you think about all the other, many things that connect you, rather than this (admittedly massive) thing that divides you.

My position is that I disagree with the October 8 attacks and also what's happening in Gaza is horrific. I've been to demonstrations about this, even bumping into two other Jewish friends at these.

So do you only disagree with Israel’s retaliatory attack on the 8th of October?

I find the dehuminisation of the Palestinians beyond reprehensible. There were people on TikTok dressing up as Palestinians, blacking out their teeth and covering themselves in dust to mock people being bombed.

The occupation of Palestine is Apartheid and the slaughter of the Palestinians is genocide. I couldn't maintain a relationship with someone who supported that.

@offyoujollywelltrot do you actually know what the slogan you've quoted means? It's a call to eradicate Jews.

Oh dial down the drama 🙄

What you're saying is the little woman should either shut up about her public opinions, or change them to match yours.

What sort of friendship is that?

The demonstrations are anti-Israel, surely that’s the point. You can condemn the actions of the Israeli government and be anti-Zionist whilst understanding that the Israeli people and Jews more widely aren’t the root of the problem. I’m Jewish and that’s my stance.

I think the problem is social media. It discourages open discussion, channelling thought into binary "wrong" or "right" rhetoric. All nuance is lost.
Your friend might be mindlessly posting shite. You'll only know for sure what her views are by asking her about it.

No it isn't.

HTH.

You’re “so sorry that it’s a possibility” that OP’s Jewish friend is a Zionist? Wow.

I am not sure I follow OP. You said you disagree with the October 7th attacks which I interpret to mean that you disagree with Hamas attacking Israel.

I am then reading the rest of your posts as meaning that you think the response from Israel is too strong, and those are the demonstrations you have been to (we will put aside whether those demonstrations are actually what you think they are if my summary is correct).

Regardless of the views of you and your friend, surely the adult thing to to is discuss / debate why you think the way you do? She may educate you that the demonstrations are possibly not what you thought, and you might educate her that there are probably others who went to them purely as they think the response from Israel is too strong and not that they shouldn't defend themselves, and that people in that camp are not necessarily anti-semitic.

There was a brilliant interview with Orla Guralnik and one of her clients on this issue. I will try and find it later. I highly recommend it

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/13/israel-palestine-7-october-gaza-orna-guralnik

Here!

I'll need to think about it.

I don't want to lose her but I find it difficult to think she'd be condemning me for this.

She has also never condemned what Israel is doing but frequently posts fact checks on how the attacks are nothing like Nazism. It's also about what she's not saying.

@Thommasina

If you can find it, that would be great!

My ex MIL is a convert to Judaism.

She and, in her words, all of her born Jewish friends oppose the actions of the Israeli govt re Gaza.

Obviously in addition to being horrified by Oct 7 and indeed terrorist acts generally.

Hi OP, it's difficult, I get it. I think if you can avoid discussing it then the friendship can survive. However, if she brings it up then you'll have to be honest and then she may well feel that she wants to end the friendship, in which case you'll have your answer. Hoping for you that she does bring it up and you're able to have a calm, productive conversation, where you can at least respect each other's position. (Obviously only possible if she's open to this and doesn't come out with some horrendous islamaphobia).

How feebleminded we are, how fragile that we cannot tolerate friends with different opinions and beliefs. And we lack the humility to acknowledge that their beliefs might be based on experiences and knowledge that we have never had. Meh.

This is a UK thing. When I lived in Europe I was often struck by how robust disagreements could be among friends and colleagues, who embraced afterwards. We are sooooo sure of ourselves here

Well it's sad - I've got many friends I don't agree with on some issues important to them, and I don't bring those things up, and I remember that what either of us thinks about any issue is only our opinion and not particularly important.

I also know a number of Jewish people who criticise Israel and even hold Anti Zionist views.
I think you are far more likely to come across these types if you are left wing. Its almost a tenant of the left to criticise your "own" side. Holding it to as high (or higher) standards as your "enemies".
This can give a false impression of how common these views are in the Jewish community as a whole.
The three Jewish critics of Israel that you know- They will almost certainly find themselves in the minority among their own friends and family. They will be navigating that somehow. Either by discussing difficult issues respectfully or by agreeing to disagree. They probably don't have the option to completely cut themselves off.
If you value this relationship I suggest you find some way to do the same.

I don't think it's that black and white. A lot of those protests and people attending them ARE antisemitic and racist. Yes, Iarael's actions are appalling. But you need to consider your friend's history, and fears. A lot of Jewish people are scared too, and perceive this to be about their survival. I think it would be cruel and obtuse to dump your friend over this.

Er, no. Zionism = belief in the right of Israel to exist. The suggestion that that is the kind of belief that should have someone struck off the friendship list of all right thinking people is, to use your word, disgusting.

Bloody hell. She is posting about anti-semitism as she is upset ( probably really distressed) at how so many people have completely overlooked racist massacre and atrocity on October 7th ( not the 8th OP), and are instead only concentrating on what is happening to Palestinians. She is probably distressed at the blatant anti-semitism there has been since October 7th and the utter callous dehumanisation of Jews and Israelis since then. The tearing down of the postages of the hostages shocked me to my core - and I am not even Jewish. I can't even begin to imagine how your friend is feeling.

She is trying to rebalance that my reminding people that Jews are humans too and they were victims of an appalling and overtly racist atrocity on October 7th.

I was at the event in Hyde park to remember the victims of October 7th. One my way in , at the perimeter of this event, there was a man talking about how people were dancing and cheering in celebration of the massacre. He was surrounded by of men who were cheering at him, calling him a liar ( he had witnessed the aftermath of the atrocities) and saying they would be dancing the next day ( which was October 7th). This is blatant anti-semitism.

There is a lot of anti-semitism on these marches and motivating people to go to the marches. That's not really deniable. See the tearing down of the hostage posters.

By referencing your ' good' Jewish friends, you seem to have quite an anti-semitic view that there are good Jews and bad Jews and you can only like good Jews who are anti-Israel. If this is your line in the sand, then your own prejudice would seem to mean the friendship cannot survive.

An alternative approach is to actually talk to your friend with a view to understanding her viewpoint and expanding your empathy.

I thought zionism meant supporting the concept of a Jewish state/Jewish land

How is that about genocide? As a concept?

I don't think this is a genuine post. I think this is bolloks with an attempt to be seen as a nice friend if you look at the wording more thoroughly. I can't see where 'her friend ' is ranting saying vile things about the Palestinians. You could still easily be friends, that is of course if this actual friendship actually exists 😒🙃