This marriage is financial abuse - AIBU?

[catstaff47]

This is about a friend. I think she is being financially abused by her DH. I will try to give the facts as she described it -

1. He earns about £120k she earns about £12k (working p/t to be around for teens).

2. He pays the mortgage and bills. There is a food shopping account into which he puts about £150 per week (for 4 people and several pets).

3. Apart from this, she lives off the £1k per month she earns - even though she buys a lot of the kids stuff out of this as well because he will not.

4. She has no idea how much money he has saved or where and he will not tell her!

5. If she runs out of money in a given month, she will take / borrow from other people rather than just ask him - her own husband!

That's about it.

I could not imagine living like this and don't know how she has accepted it for so long. To me she has been somehow conditioned to think it's ok. I have told her this (gently), but I don't think she will do anything about it or leave him. Plus I think he must be beyond help to even do this in the first place.

AIBU and what would you say to her?

Yes but this is a key point. If he actually doesn't have any (or very much) money to spare after paying the bills, then you're being very unreasonable by constantly saying he should help her out more.
I think you're so focused on his big salary, you're failing to see that many people with these salaries spend all their money on mortgage and bills. We're in exactly the same situation. Impressive salary with very little left over each month.
I think your sister needs to get her spending under control and work more hours!

Well that is exactly the point. You have no idea how much he has left every month. It is entirely possible he has less disposable income than your sister every month. So why should he keep giving her more and more. She isn't buying necessary things. She is trying to live a lifestyle beyond her family means

And despite all the feminism cryers on mumsnet, this is what we have come to: women still marry for money and refusing to work and because it is all equal, he should finance all their whims. Bonkers. This country is a total moral mess

@catstaff47 - given your updates, you need to stop 'lending' her money. Your sister has agency. She can...

• insist that her husband discuss their finances and agree on a feasible budget;
• become economically independent and get herself to a point where she could LTB if she so chooses.

However, she needs to be proactive and increase her earning potential by getting a full-time job and/or gain qualifications that would enable her to get a better paying job.

What she cannot do is muddling along as she has been, sticking her head in the sand and scrounging off friends and family.

She is a good person though and she wants to do the very best for her kids.

Like getting a full time job?

I also don't understand why your parents are so good at telling you what to do, they're never going to find aareal solution until they face the real problem which by all accounts is one of their other children.

They need to butt out of your life and sort her out themselves instead of going through you to sort it for them.

I have little sympathy. It sounds like a terrible marriage but she also sounds as though she's in a rut of playing the helpless little girl instead of a grown woman.

Nothing is stopping her from getting a full-time job, divorcing him, etc. if that would be preferable. He is spending a lot to fully support himself and three dependents, one of whom should be working fulltime.

I don't buy the "he wouldn't have progressed in her career without him" BS because plenty of us progressed in our careers without a SAH spouse taking care of things behind the scenes. And those claims always seem to overlook the enormous financial cost of providing everything for a dependent adult.

Your family is too involved. And the spending that you list that fritters away her money is absurd; kids don't need all that spent on them in any given week.

If money slips through her fingers so readily it's no wonder her husband keeps a tight rein on the finances.

What are her plans for a pension?

I have no idea what their mortgage is, so I can't calculate his outgoings.

Exactly! Your whole thread is based on the premise that he’s got shedloads of disposable income, yet looking at the numbers, it’s quite likely he has less spending money than her!

With in-laws like he appears to have, I don’t blame him for keeping quiet-he probably thinks they are going to be absolutely vile to (and about!) him if he gives them any information like that.

Is there a culture thing here where a man is expected to provide everything and look after the parents?

But you seem so sure that he has a ton of extra money sitting around to give her. Maybe she doesn't ask him for money because she knows he doesn't have it.

I agree with this. I have followed this thread with growing unease. We have people (slightly above benefits level or on modest middle incomes) in this country struggling every single day and this thread is someone saying their sister can't live on £1,000 a month plus £600 provided for food with other expenses paid. My mother in the 1970s frittered away that much of my father's money without his knowledge (and he was earning very good money) which he paid her every Friday in his wages envelope (that was how you were paid back in the day) and he thought she was saving money but she wasn't and it ended up with her in debt he had to pay back. Another slightly more distant relative on DH side was kept on a bit of a tight leash money wise by her H. He collapsed and died just after he retired. His Will gave her the money but the house to his children with her being able to occupy for life. We soon found out why. The money frittered away on rubbish. However my biggest observation OP is that your "friend" AKA sister, I believe, is married and people should in my experience not interfere in someone else's marriage - whether it is to say they are outraged by their sister being "financially abused" or to provide money behind her H's back. Only the people in a marriage know their marriage. I think maybe you would all benefit from counselling but you can decide if you personally would benefit from speaking to a counsellor to work out why you are feeling the way you do. Good luck.

I have zero sympathy. There are pensioners living on less than £1,000 a month that has to cover everything - utility and council tax bills, food, clothing, all essentials.

Maybe if they sit down and have a grown up conversation about finances, it will become clear that she has more disposable cash than him.

Will she be happy to give him a monthly allowance from her wage so that they are equal?

I don't think so, Blossom. The state pension alone is almost £1000 and most pensioners have some other income; if they don't, they can get pension credit. I do know about this as I am a pensioner.

If it’s helpful, my father did somewhat “hide”
how much he earnt / owned in assets from
my stepmother in order to keep her spending from going out of control and I never viewed it as financial abuse BUT there are some big caveats to that. She had access to a joint account that he put much more than 10x the amount of money into each month than in this case and if she wanted more he paid in more without serious question, he paid for all bills/school/holidays/restaurants/etc, she was able to spend large amounts of money on herself from that joint account (he never used it) including funding her personal ISA etc and there is no way she would ever have had to go to anyone else for money. They also had a super unhealthy relationship on many other fronts that made it hard for him to trust her (she was emotionally abusive to him and all kids involved), she got married to him well after he had made all his money and clearly enjoyed a huge lifestyle upgrade because of the marriage (ie from middle class to extravagant), and she had a near limitless desire to keep upgrading her lifestyle that meant she would have automatically increased her spending to insane levels if she had known the truth.

I’m sharing this to give context that not telling your partner about your personal finances isn’t always financial abuse, BUT keeping your wife on an unreasonably tight leash financially in the context of your family’s wealth does seem to be pretty abusive. If he really earns over 100k a year then 150 quid a week for miscellaneous shared expenses including for the kids is way too low, for example. To me, he either gives her a financially stress free life (ie she doesn’t have to think twice about a coffee or pizza or the food shopping bill) or he shares the details so she can be part of the budgeting process that requires a little bit more care.

He pays all the bills and gives her 150 a week for food. She then has 1000 a month to spend on whatever she chooses. OP says he doesn't pay for kids but also says he gives them money here and there for clothes. The list of what the 1000 is spent on is mainly unnecessary stuff.

To be honest, I don't understand what people are saying about either of them 'giving' each other anything.

They are a married couple. It is absolutely nonsense for him to not tell her if / whether / where / how much savings or money he has. This is just beyond insane - who carries on like that? To me, it's very disturbed behaviour.

If it turned out he has less than her - fine. At least they both know where they stand. They should be working together - as a married couple - not against each other. It's such a bad model for the children, I'm my view. Just be honest and stop playing petty games. Work out what you have, budget together and go from there. Secrecy and a need to seem to be in control are always based on insecurity, in my view.

For clarity, no way should you be needing to fund her either. She should either sort this out with her husband to a sensible degree or end the marriage (and there is no way he will be able to hide enough stuff to prevent her getting a large amount given the length of marriage and set up you described ie he is employed and so has a clear “income”, their marital home is highly valuable, etc).

OP in the context of the dynamics of the family, your father and your DH - it’s obvious why he would be secretive. You own DH does not see your family and presumably does not share any insight into his wealth. The only difference you are not asking anyone for money or are sponging off others. Is that true?

Let’s not lose progress here to people who have only read your posts. Please take this as an opportunity for you to seek help to better understand what’s going on before you encourage your victimised sister to end a marriage that is potentially not the issue.

Without meaning to sound disagreeable, I do think you might be best served by stepping back, stopping interfering in your sister's marriage and concentrate on yourself and your own family. Has your sister asked you to be opinionated about her H- you haven't said she has so I would guess probably not. I don't understand why you feel it's your role to judge your sister's marriage tbh. There have been many previous posts that have, in summary, suggested in one way or another, sometimes implicitly, you butt out of her marriage but you don't seem to be receptive to advice. I suggest counselling for you to try and figure out why you feel as you do and I do wish you well.

From reading your updates I'd imagine he doesn't want any of your family knowing how much, if any, in savings he has.
It's his to do with as he pleases, for all you know your Dsis knows exactly how much they have but realises if she let's on family members would feel like they're entitled to a share of it, so plays ignorant and is quite happy to continue getting hand outs from others...
Keeps their bank balance healthy.

Pretty much sounds like you all need to mind your own business.

It's such a bad model for the children, I'm my view

Hmmm. Working part time but scrounging money off your elderly parents is a pretty bad model for the children as well though…

The kids need to ask their dad for money for clothes and hobbies.

That's a good point. I don't live in the UK so I don't know what things cost but based on some of the other post it appears that he may not have much at all left over after bills. Yet the OP seems to think that he's sitting on this Scrooge MacDuck pile of cash, all the while admitting she doesn't really have any idea what his income is or what their expenses are.

OP's husband already seems to be on the hook for potentially supporting the entire family; if I were him I don't think I'd want any of them to know anything about my finances, either. Including possibly the wife.