Husband upset about teachers saying ' boys can wear make up ' and taking about transgender people to our DD

[chocolatehu]

Before I start, this isn't meant to be inflammatory in any way.

I very much belief in ' live and let live '.

My husband also generally believes that but he also believes that our DD is very young and that talk around the kinds of things mentioned in my title - is too soon.

We have a son too and sometimes when he wants to put on makeup etc, my DH will say ' boys don't wear makeup '. My DD has come home several times, correcting us saying that her teacher told her that boys do wear makeup.

Yesterday my son was trying to wear hair clips and again, someone said ' those are for girls '. My DD answered that her teacher had told her that it was ok for boys to do those things and that her friend ( who's a boy ) is now getting married as a girl.

My husband feels it's too soon and confusing for a 4 year old to be told about this.

I think it's a sign we need to have some conversations with my DD, so she hears from us about this stuff.

My in laws and parents think it's completely inappropriate for teachers to be saying this sort of stuff and are wondering if the same sort of things would be said in a catholic school setting.

I think we should buy a book which explains homosexuality/ transgender issues in a child friendly way.

Please can someone who's been here, help me navigate ? Thank you. Again, I don't want to offend anyone.

🤣
who says hair clips for girls?

I agree that's quite confusing for a 4 year old and the teacher shouldn't have gone there.

All the other stuff though your DH is being unreasonable, of course boys can wear makeup and hair clips - boys and girls can wear whatever they want and like whatever they want

Yeah I definitely recognise something needs to change and I think the way I explained it to my husband he got it as well. Just how if he keeps saying ' girls can do only this ' and boys can do only that, it's actually going to harm them in many ways going forward - one being that their understanding of their own identity may be very limited and they'll feel worried if they for example do want to express themselves outside of the ' norms '. Secondly at school, if all the other kids are being taught that you can express yourself more freely by say wearing makeup as a boy or whatever - then they'll be seen as outcasts or even bullies if they run around telling kids and teachers that ' boys can't dress up in dresses ' or whenever it is.

Boys and girls can do whatever they like. Wear make up, jewellry. What they can’t do is change sex (an operating to remove / modify genitals is just plastic surgery) and it’s a good idea for you to raise this with your school as it’s actually spreading false information.

I've discussed these types of issues with a "most people tend to... some people do..." type approach.
Talking about things at a young age means that they don't tend to be big issue reveals in the future.

There are people in same-sex relationships in my extended family. Because it's always just been a causal thing, there was no great shock when DS had a classmate with same-sex parents.
Children are wonderfully accepting when they're allowed to be.

I've ended up with children reaching the secondary years feeling comfortable within themselves. Where their preferences deviate from gender stereotypes, they're comfortable that they are boys that like what they like and don't feel pressured to question themselves for not conforming. I don't care about their potential sexuality, just that they will have healthy loving relationships.

Trans-activism does concern me because there are people/ agencies with agendas that can lead to irreversible and harmful decisions. On that topic, I've been very clear about male/ female biology, and that sex is coded into every cell of their body. People can choose the way they present and follow stereotypes, but they can't actually fully change their sex.

Promoting rigid stereotyping as fact does no one any favours, and there's often still a lot of homophobia wrapped up in those attitudes.

but the teacher didn't say her brother had changed sex. She said "he was getting married as a girl" (albeit I appreciate this is a second hand 4 year old's re-telling).

You might not consider them to be female, but if they have a GRC, (again, we don't know) they WILL, legally be "getting married as a girl." They will be referred to as 'the bride.' Every legal document (their passport, driving license, etc) will record their sex as female.

So if this is the case, the teacher isn't spreading false information.

Ironically people refusing to acknowledge the legal reality of sex change in this country, at this time, are doing exactly the same thing as people refusing to accept the biological reality of sex change.

Glad to hear you've considered the gender stereotyping....

It's possible that your DD got whatever your teacher said about her brother wrong.

Surely if the teacher accepts the "brother" she'd say - my "sister"

And if she wasn't accepting she probably wouldn't be talking to the class about it.

I'd repeat it back to the teacher in a "oh my DD was asking me more about this and I just want to clarify what you said" kind of way.

Although personally I'd have no issue with the teacher saying transgender people exist at all. I just think it's a funny way to phrase it.

I agree that I don't like kids playing with makeup.

But why on gods green earth do you think that hair clips can't go on a boy's head just as easily as they could adorn a girl's hair?

A discussion about transgenderism is not a lesson! Topical issues always present themselves in class. We have had to have discussions on things that we do not teach lessons on: death, conflict and sexuality are all issues that have presented in my class in the last year. I didn't teach a single lesson let alone multiple lessons about any of them.

I am never keen to have these discussions definitely do not have the time but they do come from the pupils themselves. It is up to teachers to respond to our pupil and class needs. It's not about correcting the way they think, it's usually about explaining things in a way that they stop harassing one particular child.

‘Hair clips are for girls’

Can you just look at what you’ve written here and ask yourself if it’s actually a logical position @wickerlady?

Hair clips are for longer hair. That much is true (on very short hair, there is not enough hair for the clips to attach to).

Do all boys have a #1 cut and all girls have longer hair? Is that honestly your belief?

Are boys allowed to have long hair and girls allowed to have short hair? Or does everyone have to grow/cut their hair according to their reproductive system?

What a very strange worldview you have.

If we believe boys wearing hair clips and make up can become girls then boys can't wear hair clips and makeup.

I believe boys do and can wear hair clips and make up and they are boys who like to wear hair clips and make up.

Since when do boys wear makeup as the norm? He wears more foundation, blush , eye makeup than you? That really, really isn't the norm.

Odd that no one is concerned about the heterosexual ideology she is being exposed to on a daily basis.

David Bowie wore fantastic make up. Various cultures have men in dresses or skirts. Boys can do sewing and ironing, girls can fix engines.

This is not the same as saying boys can turn into girls. It’s saying stereotypes are shit, and you don’t change into a girl just because your favourite colour is sparkly or change into a boy because you like maths and football.

The teacher may be giving conflicting messages here. On one hand she is correctly explaining that boys can wear make up and hair slides, but on the other linking this to a man who is now saying he's a woman. I'd be uncomfortable with that as it appears to suggest that boys who like 'girl things' are sometimes girls, which they are not. A boy who wears make up is a boy, not on some trajectory to becoming a woman. So, while I think your H is wrong to take a blanket exception to the teaching, I would share some of his concerns about how it's being put across. Tbh 'gender' issues are so controversial they don't really have a place in school beyond the very neutral 'some people think...'

I haven't read the whole thread but the transgender issue and the makeup thing are very different things, in fact contradictory. Makeup is not related to homosexuality either. Anyone can wear makeup (or fancy hair clips), it is a neutral thing created by our culture and not inherent to any sex. It also varies between cultures and time periods, e.g. Elizabethan men powdered their faces.

I think it's harmful to say "makeup is for girls" not only because it's disappointing for a boy interested in makeup, but it also boxes the girls in by implying they need to wear makeup. The result is that a boy interested in makeup might think they are actually a girl and fall down a rabbit hole of changing their body with hormones, etc., and viceversa for girls who take no interest in such things. Making a fuss about a 4 year-old's hair clips also sends the wrong message and draws attention to sex differences that they're too young to care about anyway.

I don't wear makeup and I'm a woman. My brother had a glam rock period in his youth where he was going out made up like Adam Ant every weekend. Neither of us is transgender, or gay.

Mine go to a catholic school (we aren't catholics) and so far there's been no talk of 'transgenders'. They will teach them about gay families at some point (this was one of the things I spoke to the head about when we were viewing the school) but its covered briefly and they it's not an agenda push. I love having my kids at a catholic school and wouldn't want them anywhere else.

I don’t find this hard to believe. My son would only have to put on a bit of eyeliner to wear more make up than me since I don’t wear any at all. Quite a lot of women don’t!

She didn't say it was the norm. She said that, in this specific instance, her boy wears more makeup than her. Funnily enough, that doesn't make her a man nor him a girl. And it doesn't make them abnormal, because normal is not one defined thing.

not odd in the least, as long as she’s not being exposed to anything sexual which is inappropriate for her age.

I think it might be part of the curriculum now, and the teacher probably has to have these talks whether they like them or not

‘Hair clips are for girls’

Can you just look at what you’ve written here and ask yourself if it’s actually a logical position @wickerlady?

Hair clips are for longer hair. That much is true (on very short hair, there is not enough hair for the clips to attach to).

Do all boys have a #1 cut and all girls have longer hair? Is that honestly your belief?

Are boys allowed to have long hair and girls allowed to have short hair? Or does everyone have to grow/cut their hair according to their reproductive system?

What a very strange worldview you have.

@Waitingfordoggo

It's not that strange though is it? Go to your local city centre and tell me how many men or boys are wearing hair clips. In the context of the OP, the clips in question are probably bright pink and from Claire's Accessories! Or are those worn by men too?

If it was a 4yo messing about in the house, I'd think little of it. If he wanted to wear the clips on the Sainsbury's shop, I'd probably refuse, just like I'd refuse to let him wear one of his sisters dresses. It's not appropriate.

You can pick my post apart all you like, I can guess what you'll say next "bright pink can't be worn by males? Throw her in jail for such a suggestion".

Another day despairing for the west and what we have become.

'@NinaPersson

What do you think the teacher should be forcing her beliefs on to young children? Deluded!'

What 'beliefs'?

Men can and do wear make-up. That's not a belief, it is a fact.

Some people are in same sex relationship. Again not a belief, a fact.

Some people call themselves transgender. Again a fact. You are perfectly entitled to say that people can't change sex and I agree with that. But in life you will also encounter people who chose to present as someone from a different gender and that does not mean it is OK to judge/treat them poorly.

Basically you want kids to learn to be decent human beings.

Can I recommend though, having a teen myself, that you get reading up on the issues around gender identities. Take your time but look to original sources so that you make your own mind up about what you believe and what you don't.

For instance, as we have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves. I can find a recent quote for you if you wish. There is no medical condition required for identifying as having a transgender identity.
And how would this diagnosis go in any case for a Neptune gender identity?

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is their philosophical belief.

Meaning no one needs to comply with another person's philosophical belief. However you may choose to accept that a gender identity is something you, personally, believe in and support.

While you might need to work out what you believe, it is important to keep in mind what will and will not work for your children and how they navigate this issue as they become exposed to it. In my teen's group of friends, out of 7 of them, 5 declared transgender identities. This is an issue that requires some very knowledgeable discussions. Hence, my recommendation to get reading for yourself.

My children go to a catholic school and the gender stereotypes are as off limits there as anywhere else.

The boys do wear hair clips, they dress up in princess dresses in the dress up corner and the girls dress up as builders and firemen! They are having fun expressing themselves and they are 4/5.

There is a huge push for all children to know they can do and be whatever they want. Nothing in anyway sexual, but totally accepting of individualism and differences.

Later in the school the sex Ed is very similar to a secular school (as I’d hope).