Husband upset about teachers saying ' boys can wear make up ' and taking about transgender people to our DD

[chocolatehu]

Before I start, this isn't meant to be inflammatory in any way.

I very much belief in ' live and let live '.

My husband also generally believes that but he also believes that our DD is very young and that talk around the kinds of things mentioned in my title - is too soon.

We have a son too and sometimes when he wants to put on makeup etc, my DH will say ' boys don't wear makeup '. My DD has come home several times, correcting us saying that her teacher told her that boys do wear makeup.

Yesterday my son was trying to wear hair clips and again, someone said ' those are for girls '. My DD answered that her teacher had told her that it was ok for boys to do those things and that her friend ( who's a boy ) is now getting married as a girl.

My husband feels it's too soon and confusing for a 4 year old to be told about this.

I think it's a sign we need to have some conversations with my DD, so she hears from us about this stuff.

My in laws and parents think it's completely inappropriate for teachers to be saying this sort of stuff and are wondering if the same sort of things would be said in a catholic school setting.

I think we should buy a book which explains homosexuality/ transgender issues in a child friendly way.

Please can someone who's been here, help me navigate ? Thank you. Again, I don't want to offend anyone.

But that's not what's happened? The Teacher has told the daughter that boys who wear hairclips and make up are trans.

That's just not true.

You think your attitude isn't problematic? You won't allow your son to have pink or wear whatever clothes he decides on outside the house?!

Does that work in reverse as well?

Your Husband can't wear pink and you and a daughter only wear skirts or dresses?

Attitudes haven't really changed, they've changed the wording.

Back 20 years and boy would be gay for wearing a dress. Now they are trans for wearing a dress.

Why can't they just be boys who are exploring and enjoying playing with a different item of clothing?

Why can't they just be boys who are exploring and enjoying playing with a different item of clothing?

Exactly.

I wouldn't be happy about it either - had a more detailed and nuanced post but decided to stay out of the discussion, couldn't figure out how to delete!

People can still read what you put, you might as well have left it

...the pictures of Harry Styles wearing couture dresses. He still looks every inch a gorgeous bloke with muscles and tattoos...
For him he's having such a fun time being 'edgy' with a new way to make him look different and draw attention to himself.
But it's eyewateringly shallow, insensitive and insulting.
It's not fun for girls who have to wear skirts to school all winter. Not fun for the women who have to stand all day in skirts and high heels at work.
As Jarvis says "Everybody hates a tourist. Especially one who, who thinks it's all such a laugh."

That would annoy me more. It's a very confusing thing, for a four year old to be told and frankly cobblers.

Your kids are small. When DS was 2 he often came home in hair clips from nursery. The girls played with hair there and so did he. At nearly 4 now, he will wear makeup on Halloween so we practiced it tonight.

I do steer him away from pink sparkly clothing although let him pick out the pink headphones for our last flight. You have to pick your battles.

When he asks is something is for girls (eg a toy) I always say it's for children. He does favour typically boy toys but isn't steered towards them at all.

I'm on the line where I don't want him in dresses but don't want him to feel he misses out on fun things because of being one or the other. So dress up clothing for play is totally fine, dresses in general no.

He is starting to understand a bit more culturally eg girls tend to wear this. His best friend- a boy- is going as a witch for Halloween and mine is a cat. There were lots of variations of cat costumes so his has a bow tie not the skirt. He picked this.

I'm just trying to give examples. This is a very small part of our lives and I try not to overthink it while being flexible, giving him broad experiences, teaching him acceptance and having a few boundaries.

You think it’s a sign of moral degradation that men can wear pink? Good lord. I’m truly glad that the majority of westerners have more common sense than that

Then he needs to say that then; ‘I don’t want you wearing make up” (to your DS)

@chocolatehu For me there are two separate issues here.

Can boys wear makeup and dresses?

Yes! The teacher's response to this is completely correct! In practice boys don't usually wear makeup and dresses but I think it's important to be clear about the fact that wearing makeup and dresses isn't what makes someone a girl/woman and that some men do dress in a gender non conforming way. You could show your kids pictures of David Bowie to explain that some men do wear makeup but they are still men, and then say that other than the occasional fancy dress/face painting occasion, children don't wear makeup because it's something only grown ups do, but when they're older they're both free to experiment with clothes and makeup.

Can a boy/girl become a man/woman or vice versa?

This one is much more difficult because some people believe they can and some people believe they can't. I personally believe this is not possible and disagree with the teacher. I probably wouldn't pull my kids out of school and send them to Catholic school over this because they will encounter these issues whichever school they are in. So maybe just decide on your standpoint, be very clear about your messaging, talk about it with your kids in an age appropriate way, and if you can find books which explain it well, get them. For the age your children are now you could try "My body is me" by Rachel Rooney, which isn't overly about trans issues but is aimed at combating the myth that you can be born in the wrong body.

No, I'm accusing you of interpreting what was said. Because that's how all communication works.

What you've reported doesn't make sense, so at some point it must have got distorted. "My brother got married as a girl" would not be how a supportive sister describes her trans sibling's wedding. Most likely it's become distorted because your 4 year old is 4, but it could also be that you've interpreted it in a way related to a trans sibling because of other comments she's made.

By the way, I think you're awesome, because unlike most posters on here, you've heard what has been said, and reflected on it and acted on it. I'm sure your kids are being raised well. And I don't think you're a liar!

OP didn't say that the teacher said that.

Your husband is clearly hard of thinking if he can't connect that it's exactly his kind of attitude that leads impressionable young boys and men to believe they need to be a "woman" to express femininity. He's going to damage your son. Put a stop to that right now.

I’d certainly take issue with the trans stuff being pushed on young impressionable minds. They are there to teach kids not push ideology. But the make up stuff is bonkers. Of course boys can wear make up. Has your husband ever heard of David Bowie? I’d be really annoyed at him and would tell him to shut up about it, not at the teacher

I've already acknowledged that and responded to another poster about it 😊

Oh well, thanks for letting me know. I don't find the site the most intuitive!

Hi OP, brace yourself for teenage years! As our nieces hit the secondary school stage I warned their other aunties, who don't have their own kids, to be careful what they said if they didn't want to sound ancient and out of touch.
I remember my dear late father commenting on Boy George on Top of the Pops and thinking how old and ridiculous he sounded!

It is not a question of being outdated. Activists have been training teachers to push a dangerous ideology on children, one that can cause them untold harm and that labels any safeguarding as ‘phobic. It is important to learn about this so you can speak to them and protect them.

Wearing make up doesn't make. 4 yr old gay or transgender.

Or a 40 yr old either.

My kids are at a catholic school and they very much encourage girls and boys to dress up in the princess dresses as well as the superhero outfits. They have boys as angels in the nativity wearing dresses. They don't push gender stereotype stuff at all (I'd be very surprised if any school did nowadays).

I'd suggest your husband has a toxic masculinity problem. It's not healthy and he should do something about it before he damages his children.

The trans stuff is a different issue - I think there are strict rules put in by the last government on what schools can teach on that - maybe look into it?

But trans people clearly exist although equally clearly no one can change sex. I don't think their existence should be hidden from Children.

But trans people clearly exist although equally clearly no one can change sex. I don't think their existence should be hidden from Children.

Anyone who thinks four year olds need to learn about people with paraphilias should be nowhere near schools.

Have you? The other related post I found from you said:
"The Teacher has told the daughter that boys who wear hairclips and make up are trans.
That's just not true."

OP never stated that the teacher told her daughter that boys who wear hairclips and make up are trans. Unless I've missed a significant post.

OP has said the teacher tells them anyone can wear makeup and hairclips. The OP also said that the teacher mentioned that "her brother got married as a girl."

You've nailed the whole gender issue there, for me. I'm willing to bet there'd be a hell of a lot less gender dysphoria around if everyone accepted that men could wear make-up and work in caring roles, women could crop their hair and work as mechanics or carpenters, boys can like pink and girls can go paintballing. And people of whatever sex can be in relationships with anyone they like (and who likes them back) no matter what either person's sex (or gender) might be.