Husband upset about teachers saying ' boys can wear make up ' and taking about transgender people to our DD

[chocolatehu]

Before I start, this isn't meant to be inflammatory in any way.

I very much belief in ' live and let live '.

My husband also generally believes that but he also believes that our DD is very young and that talk around the kinds of things mentioned in my title - is too soon.

We have a son too and sometimes when he wants to put on makeup etc, my DH will say ' boys don't wear makeup '. My DD has come home several times, correcting us saying that her teacher told her that boys do wear makeup.

Yesterday my son was trying to wear hair clips and again, someone said ' those are for girls '. My DD answered that her teacher had told her that it was ok for boys to do those things and that her friend ( who's a boy ) is now getting married as a girl.

My husband feels it's too soon and confusing for a 4 year old to be told about this.

I think it's a sign we need to have some conversations with my DD, so she hears from us about this stuff.

My in laws and parents think it's completely inappropriate for teachers to be saying this sort of stuff and are wondering if the same sort of things would be said in a catholic school setting.

I think we should buy a book which explains homosexuality/ transgender issues in a child friendly way.

Please can someone who's been here, help me navigate ? Thank you. Again, I don't want to offend anyone.

@Ocsober the danger is that trans is being lumped in with being gay. It's fine to be totally open to same sex parenting, but uncomfortable with reading about trans to primary aged children. A lot of Lesbians are really having to fight their corner on this. Especially since they have been called TERFS for not wanting sex with a self I.D trans woman .

This is classic strawman/false-equivalence bullshit.

I think your husband is right tbh, it’s fine as they are older if they choose to do so but it’s not something I’d personally encourage such a young age.

But boys CAN and DO wear make up, your husband is wrong. He can’t be annoyed that he’s being corrected. He needs to be more precise, he doesn’t like it and doesn’t want his son wearing make up. So if that’s what he wants to say then he needs to, otherwise he will be corrected.

I'm a parent of three boys.

I would FAR rather that school...everyone in fact...pushed the idea that every person can dress as they want, wear what colours they want, paint their face or their nails as they want.

The alternative is taking the stance that pink/dresses/painted nails are ONLY ever for girls and that little boys who like these must 'transition'.

I have three sisters, female cousins and nieces, dh has sisters and nieces. Our three boys are pretty much the only boys in the family so they've always been surrounded by females. They've all gone through the copying stage and wanted to play with make up, nail painting, wearing princess dresses. It's completely and utterly normal. My eldest two are teens now and wouldn't be seen dead in nail varnish or similar, it doesn't break them 🙄

Most teachers steer clear of this kind of stuff if possible. They give a factual response if asked and move on. It barely ever comes up. Either you have got an unusual teacher, or you have blown it out of proportion. It will be a different teacher next year so I wouldn’t worry about it that much.

Homophobia is depressingly rampant in schools though. So is misogyny. Your DH is doing his bit to keep those attitudes going.

All the male heroes in all the movies wear make up, and not just on screen. Make grooming is huge now. Your Dads teacher is talking about freedom of choice and equality. That goes both ways. Or do you want your DD growing up thinking Lego is just for boys? STEM is just for boys? Football is just for boys.
Just frame it as equality, cite the days when women didn't have it, and you'll/ she will be fine.

But he can’t turn his own opinion into a law of nature.
He could be honest and say ‘I don’t want you, specifically, my son, to wear make-up’. Obviously that has the potential to be damaging to their future relationship — but no less damaging than a broad generalisation that is patently untrue. Idiot.

I think the problem with saying "boys don't/can't wear make up/hairslides" is that it's just not true. They do and they can. Your DS is 2? Let him wear the slides, dress etc. He sees his sister doing it and is joining in. I have 2 DS, one was obsessed with frozen, wanted an Elsa dress, which I got for him. He last wore it aged 5 I think. He's 9 now, and doesn't wear dresses anymore.

Wrt to trans thing, it def is tricky to address when they're so young. That said, you needn't make it a big thing. A simple explanation will do, along the lines of X is a boy, but would prefer to be a girl or similar.

That’s right DD
Clowns wear make up, actors on stage and on TV wear make up. People pretending to be other people, animals and aliens. It’s all people acting. Dressing up and playing a part.

But your children aren’t growing up in the 50s. They’re here, now, and the sort of rubbish your husband is spouting belongs very firmly in the past. These sort of views are what lead to people listening to idiots like Tommy Robinson and rioting in the streets ( slightly hyperbolic, I know, but the principle is right - small-minded people who don’t think for themselves and are so entrenched in intolerant views that they can’t think for themselves). Step back for one minute, OP and think about what you’re saying - your 4 yo daughter can play with makeup but your toddler son, seeing this, isn’t allowed to join in. Seriously? I think you need to be having a few little words with your husband

Clip clop. Another teacher thread.

Lucky kids, I say.
Parents who give a shit, are trying to learn and do the right thing.
Good parenting.

Because of course what he really means is ‘I don’t want you to be gay’

He may not admit it even to himself, but that’s what he’s thinking.

Don't forget newsreaders. All the men reading his nice,safe manly news are wearing make up. If they didn't they'd look very odd.

There are two separate issues in your op. Of course anyone can wear make up, use hair slides, have long hair, short hair, no hair. Same with clothes. Same with sports. When I was little girls didn't play football or rugby for instance. To insist certain things are girl things or boy things is very old fashioned.

There is nothing wrong with boys wearing make up, what is wrong is suggesting that this might make them girls.

Children growing up now are so much more restricted in how they can dress and what they can like within their sex, because of the gender ideology they have been taught.

My DD was first 'mis-gendered' at 9, pretty much because she wears trousers and trainers all the time and her favourite colour was blue.

My DS (younger than DD) is 11 now and visibly stressed since starting high school that he doesn't know what gender he is yet. He is a little boy that hasn't gone through puberty.

This is grooming, it is not something that pre pubescent children should be pressured to worry about. They have been taught about the concept in year 5, by year 7, the other children are telling anyone different that they might not be who they thought they were.

DD is autistic and gay and I have been worried for years that someone 'well meaning' would encourage her down a path of rejecting her body, mutilation and medication that would destroy her health and well-being and ultimately shorten her life. That is in no way being bigoted or unkind.

DS (also autistic) I hadn't worried about so much until recently, as he has never had the same criticism from his peers, as the stuff he likes is 'boys stuff'. It is now seeming like this may be something we have to navigate and protect him from.

Support for autistic children is absolutely infiltrated by gender ideology. When studies first began to identify that transgender children were disproportionately autistic, I thought thank goodness, authorities will start to realise that the rejection/dysmorphia/difference these children feel will start to be understood as their neurodivergence.

However, totally the opposite seems to have happened in that the narrative is that if you are neurodivergant, you are more likely to be transgender.

If you are comfortable suggesting that concerned parents are bigots, when there are such grave physical consequences of this ideology for children, I think you need to be grateful you have that luxury.

Personally, I believe that boys and girls should should be able to wear, play with, love whoever they want regardless of their sex. Gender ideology is much more narrow, stereotyped and dogmatic.

Personally I'd be raising an issue with maybe the head of year or head teacher about the boy getting married as a girl comment. Thinking people can change gender is a belief and it shouldn't be spoken about as a fact, just like I wouldn't want religion being spoken about as facts, it's a personal belief.

But I'd be telling my husband to stop talking about boys don't wear makeup etc, this is a gender stereotype which I find really annoying! Is he going to start telling your daughter she can't do stereotypical 'boy' things too like play football, have short hair etc??

You think the husband is tight in telling the male child that he can't wear makeup, but not saying the same to the girl? And the same for hair clips?

Your husband is making this a big deal he just needs to ignore and go with the flow.

Men wear make up all the time it doesn’t mean anything other than they like to wear it.

it wasn’t that long ago that it was uncommon for women to wear trousers or play certain sports. Is your husband also going to tell your daughter that girls don’t play football or become engineers?

I think we should buy a book which explains homosexuality/ transgender issues in a child friendly way.

Be careful what you choose to show them and be sure to read and consider it carefully yourself first, there's some quite disturbing stuff out there and anyway you are under no obligation to accept trans ideology as fact. This book is good, in terms of challenging stereotypes without promoting gender-changing.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/product/my-body-is-me/

"Harmful gender stereotypes" are an obvious consequence of trans ideology: adolescent girl doesn't 'feel' like a girl (doesn't relate to the societal stereotype) so is told she must be a boy and wants to have her breasts removed; or transwoman says he 'feels' like a woman so he 'performs' a highly stereotyped version of what he thinks a 'woman' is, based on nothing but gender stereotypes. 🤷‍♂️

I think we should buy a book which explains homosexuality/ transgender issues in a child friendly

Is this for your husband?

Just had a chat with my husband about the whole thing and I think he will definitely change his tact about it now.

It might be ' ok ' for the girls in nursery to tell the boys they shouldn't wear dresses but if we continue to perpetuate those stereotypes, our children will actually have problems at school and in society.

We need to make sure they understand that some people like wearing makeup and wearing whatever clothes they like. Because forcing the issue too much is exactly what could end up making them feel like they don't fit into the stereotype we have created for them.

As for the teacher, I'm not going to bring it up, but would probably have preferred if it hadn't been said, as my DD is quite young to understand it.

It’s so bloody sexy to see men wearing nail varnish or eyeliner! I think part of the sex appeal is that they’re secure in who they are <misses point of thread>

My parents were raised in muslim countries and even they’re cool with men in make up. I suspect your man has some issues to work through for himself.

The teacher was just being factual in saying ‘yep,
some men wear make up. This is something men can do’

ETA - I’d definitely point out that not all women wear make up either as per the great point from @HildaHosmede