New Lucy Letby details

[Mrsdoyler]

Did you see today in the news that LucyLetby originally failed her nursing training.

Reason: Lack of empathy

But another nurse was involved in that. So unless the other nurse is a murderer too it’s clearly an honest error.

Which is not to say anything about what she is convicted of. Just that this latest little nugget, while sensational, is quite obviously totally irrelevant to her guilt or innocence.

the same argument could be made for any number of serial killers, at a guess this one is one where is happened with modern times and modern media etc so every detail can be dissected and we don't need to rely on history as its events here and now

@Mrsdoyler Everyone makes at least one drug error in their career. I can remember mine: I doubled someone’s antidepressant accidentally as the boxes looked the same, and it still haunts me to this day. I always triple check now. Tbh, the vast majority of drug errors we pick up are actually made my medics on prescription. We’re legally responsible if we dish those out so we have to double check there too-that’s why nurses need to know their meds.

The dropout rate was around 1/3 when I trained. Failing was another matter though.

I failed a student nurse on my ward, the university practically hounded me over it, tried to make out it was my failing, despite me having successfully mentored dozens of students at that point.

They tried to force me to pass her, then let here resit somewhere else when I wouldn't. Two years later she was struck off for gross misconduct.

Why are you so aggressive? If you personally insult me I will report you.

I posted the headline of the article on this thread.

I also posted the link To the full article. So people could read the rest of the article.

No one on mumsnet, when they start a thread , types the entire article into the first post do they.

They leave the link to the article.

Your expectations are ridiculous

Same here, she actually mocked and laughed at me when I was doing my breathing exercises, told me I "silly and stupid", that "we all have to suffer pain" and that I was "fussing about nothing" as "you are in the early stages of labour and clearly cannot cope because you aren't normal" I was fully dilated by this stage and in a state of utter terror as she led me to think that this was just the start and I had hours to go, she said baby would be born at midnight, they arrived at 11.30am and she then shouted at me for not telling her I was ready to push. I think that people like this are drawn to caring roles because they can bully and abuse and have power over the vulnerable

Well done for sticking to what you knew was right.

Letby must have been a very cold fish to have been failed for lack of empathy and warmth- she allegedly wasn't thought to be a good fit for patients and families.
Her expressions in photos can look rather ''blank''.

But was she a Shipman in the making? Morphine overdose given to a baby.

The sort of record keeping error you are talking about might fall under the ones that have no clinical impact- 72% of the 237 million.

It wouldn’t fall under the 66 million of clinical significance as those are backed up by adverse reactions linked to medication errors.

I would've been tempted to take that further and raise the conduct of the university with the NMC.

Doubtful, in fact IMHO doubtful if she did anything wrong at all...

It is one of those cases where you just can't be 100 per cent sure of what happened.

Was she just incompetent.
Was she trained enough to be around very sick premature babies

I think this second ‘error’ of administering antibiotics that “wasn’t due and had not been prescribed” is fucking terrifying. I feel this cannot be put down to incompetence. How could she think the situation was “unavoidable”

Last year I sat watching my friend die, while ward nurses showed not one jot of empathy for her. Recently I've encountered several nurses who can't possibly have passed any sort of empathy test. And how much make up is considered normal for nursing staff now? Wasn't allowed once

Lucy Letby gave baby morphine overdose years before first murder, inquiry hears
Newborn received 10 times the correct amount of painkiller and could have died if colleagues had not spotted error

PA Media
Wed 16 Oct 2024 19.20 BST

Lucy Letby gave a potentially fatal dose of morphine to a newborn baby two years before she murdered her first victim, an inquiry has heard.
The infant received 10 times the correct amount of the painkiller at the end of a night shift in July 2013 and could have died if colleagues at handover had not spotted the error an hour later.

The Thirlwall inquiry into the events surrounding Letby’s crimes at the Countess of Chester hospital was told that Letby and another nurse set up the morphine infusion for the child.
Letby’s colleague was said to be so distraught about the incident that she almost resigned, but Letby was “unhappy” when informed by the neonatal unit ward deputy ward manager, Yvonne Griffiths, that she could not administer controlled drugs until a review had taken place.
A week later, the neonatal unit ward manager, Eirian Powell, apparently informed Letby that she could continue working with drugs such as morphine, the inquiry heard.

@DoTheDinosaurStomp, I did. It was an awful time, I had to justify every thought that went through my head to the dean of the school of nursing. I took a union rep with me at that point.

If you are genuinely interested in this case, @Mrsdoyler then MD in Private Eye has been writing articles about it for some weeks (originally thought she was guilty but looked further into the case) and the fact that so much was not allowed to go to trial. It genuinely needs to be looked at again. Her nursing colleagues were not allowed to give evidence for her and it sounds like she's been a scapegoat here.

OP, your ridiculous post will make more posters look at the evidence that supports Lucy letby being innocent.

I do agree. Along with judging her demeanour from what we’ve seen at her arrest or under questioning. But there’s a fair number of people who use the fact that nobody has ever raised any issue like this about her practice to defend the belief that she’s innocent.

Oh i agree with you. It was of no clinical significance and was a no harm error. My point however is that a member of the public would possibly read "237 million" medication errors and assume that clinicians are making 237 million drug errors per year (or whatever timescale is being discussed).

Does the article give an exact definition of 'clinical significance' in regards to these errors? I'm tired and my eyes are blurry so it would be useless me reading the article right now. However if I remember correctly from looking at the DATIX supplementing information, an incident of clinical significance isn't always direct patient harm. It can be that the error has cost the organisation time or money, or some other sort of service disruption.

Letby and another nurse set up the morphine infusion for the child being the key info here

Why is it terrifying? It’s not like antibiotics are a drug that can harm a baby. Your screenshots don’t give the full context either. How did the error unfold?

And that's the big issue, you are not supposed to go to prison where there is reasonable doubt over your guilt:

To name a few reasonable issues we have-

The prosecutions key technical witness not being an expert in Neonatal.
The notes, which were produced as part of her NHS paid for CBT after the event.
The skin pattern evidence, based on a theory only once described in the literature in a paper from the 80's, the author of which says it is not applicable.
The practicality, and ability to prove administration of air to the stomach.
Autopsies carried out by non specialists
A record of deaths in the unit, huge hygiene issues and plumbing problems with sewage backing up in sinks.

etc.. ad nauseam...

I think surgeon lacking empathy = fine
Nurse or GP lacking empathy = not fine. We’ve all met them and they can have a hugely negative impact.

With the morphine infusion error what happened to the other nurse, were they both given the same sanction and retraining