New Lucy Letby details

[Mrsdoyler]

Did you see today in the news that LucyLetby originally failed her nursing training.

Reason: Lack of empathy

I feel like her requests to appeal being denied are politically motivated to protect the NHS. I can’t imagine any other murder case that had the same or similar prosecution issues being denied an appeal.

I agree, so many unanswered questions, so much coming out now involving the whole department and other staff speaking out, it looks a complete shambles, no sharing of information,

The fallibility in the justice system goes from the jury to the justice.

I am appalled to read that she is not allowed to appeal.

I think it’s judges protecting judges more than anything.
I do find it very odd that the Baby K retrial went ahead though. Harold Shipman wasn’t charged with additional crimes because he couldn’t have got a fair trial. It’s not as if the courts aren’t busy either.

8 separate judges think she is guilty.

More evidence here if anyone needs it that Dr Jayaram isn’t a reliable witness
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X0QI6GiA8ZU&pp=2AEAkAIB

Which explains why she didn’t get a fair trial and hasn’t been granted an appeal.

No judges have said they think she is guilty that's not how it works. Two juries in separate trials found her guilty - not all unanimously, although there were 11-1 verdicts on most charges. It's likely the one person was the same person but we don't even know that. So it could be a different group of 11 people thought she was guilty on each charge.

The judges in both appeals are not finding her guilty. They are saying the trial procedures were fair and the evidence shown to the jury was fair and if other evidence wasn't admitted then there's no reason to call a new trial to admit it now. They are quite specifically not saying they are finding her guilty BUT they are saying IF the trial procedures were fair and they only heard valid evidence we will treat the juries verdict of guilt as sound i.e. she is guilty.

Which is what goes for the rest of us too. She is guilty in the same way anyone else found guilty in a court is guilty. Unless and until she proves either the trial was substantively unfair which is unlikely now OR she can show there is new evidence to show a jury that justifies a retrial which is still possible.

Nothing would have happened whilst the Thirlwell inquiry is ongoing. That is working from the presumption of guilt, it would be a political and justicatible nightmare to allow for an appeal at this stage.

They are saying that the tube could've come out accidentally. Dr J said he hadn't seen it happen on such a small baby, but in the video they say it does. OK. But why was LL just standing watching, and hadn't the alarm on the machine (or the machine itself) been switched off?

They didn't bring the door swipe data to appeal. They went with the media coverage including the New Yorker article which is pro Letby.

Perversely the New Yorker article, while raising pertinent questions, might have contributed to the negative press and public view of the whole thing. For a start there was an attitude of irritation that US journalists were poking their noses into the UK justice system. Then the blocking of the article until after the second trial created extra drama as it may not have been clear in which direction it was presumed to be potentially prejudicial.

I think it is quite right to call into question the police who had their pat on the back documentary on the starting blocks so quickly.

I do think that the lurid press hoopla was a large part of the way this trial went. Unless the jury were kept in a hermetically sealed box for the duration of the trial there's no way they could have missed the coverage at some point.

I also agree that the establishment has to stand firm on the conviction given the Thirlwall enquiry is entirely based on the premise of preventing serial killers from operating in the NHS.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out. I don't think the furore is going to die down any time soon.

At least one other nurse said at both trials that the alarm was sounding. Dr Jayaram in his statement to police said he couldn’t remember if the alarm was sounding. As there was never a time when both nurses assigned to that room were absent it is unlikely that the nurse standing doing nothing by the cot was Letby.

The door swipe data had been corrected for the child K trial so they probably couldn't use that as a grounds for appeal...even though the data had been used in a previous trial which was allowed to be used as evidence for this one.

I also read recently that there was also a back door that people could go in that they didn't need to swipe to get through, can't remember where I read it, could have been private eye or the Telegraph maybe, does anyone remember?

It’s been mentioned in Private Eye. It may have come from the nurse who had previously worked there interviewed for Channel 5.

His evidence on these points is vague. It doesn’t sound like he was paying that much attention to the alarms etc (understandable as he was attending to a baby in crisis). Keep in mind the incident was years and years in the past at this point too, and in the interim he had become certain LL was a murderer, which could colour his recollections.

The below is from this article: Shropshire Star

‘Alarms were supposed to sound if blood oxygen levels dipped below 90% but he did not hear any, the doctor said.

He went on: “I didn’t look to see whether the button that can cause the alarm to be suspended was pressed but the saturations were going down and continued to go down.”’

……..

‘Mr Johnson said: “Was there any evidence of Lucy Letby having done anything like that [resuscitating the baby] before you had come in?”

The witness replied: “I would not say there was. I was not looking, but there was not any obvious evidence of that.”’

The baby K case hinges on a single eyewitness testimony of a stressful, hectic situation that took place many years ago. Additionally we know the eyewitness to be convinced of her guilt, for reasons beyond the incident in question.

It’s scary this even came to trial once, never mind twice. Never mind resulting in a conviction.

I watched the panorama documentary today and thought it was a bit odd, especially the female expert witness who was like “I didn’t convict her, the jury did”.

Ultimately what stands out to me is how absurd the crimes are. Babies being killed in the public NHS, it’s really hard to wrap your head around. It’s definitely the sort of corruption and mass outrage that could lead to a cover up or a rushed conviction, because ultimately someone needs to be seen as being punished to restore faith in public services.

I am on the fence. The most baffling thing for me is the lack of motive. I think if we knew what fuelled the murders, we’d be better able to understand the context and the evidence. The fact strange deaths occurred at both hospitals she worked at is strong evidence against her imo. I think she’s likely involved or implicated on some level, even if she’s ultimately been a scapegoat. It’s likely that once the NHS got word of the scale of the scandal, all her colleagues turned their backs on her. I reckon the truth lies somewhere in the middle, with there being clear failures in the NHS that are being buried. If the hospitals had robust care & management, killers wouldn’t be allowed to repeatedly offend.

Thank you.

It's interesting also how she was originally charged with the murder of baby K but the prosecution chose not to bring the evidence to trial so a not guilty verdict was ordered on that charge before the first trial.
I wonder is that because the mortality review at Arrowe Park said she had received suboptimal care at the COCH.

Trial 1 had Joanne Williams leaving Baby K’s room st 3.47am, after J said he saw LL standing still. It’s was “emblazoned on his mind”.

At Trial 2 that was changed to Williams entering at 3.47am so J had to change his entire testimony.

Nurse Williams testified that when the alarm went off Jayaram came over and asked “What happened, who was in there?” Indicating J was not in the room with Baby K at the time.

I used to think J used an incident of LL “standing still” and embellished it. Now I think he just invented it.

Either way the retrial convicted LL of standing still.

Suboptimal care and arrived in so poor a condition as to make death inevitable.

J testified in court Baby K was “stable”.

Dr Barbarao from Arrowe Park testified that Baby was very unwell with undiagnosed lung disease, undiagnosed kidney failure, uncontrolled low bp and glucose.

LL is irrelevant to the death of this poor baby.

Is Dr J’s memory the only source for the time 3.47am being significant I wonder? Anyone know what kind of written records there were supporting any of this?

Is it just years-old recollection to support details as specific as timings to the minute?

Swipe data. Changed for the 2nd trial. Edit: Oh I see - you mean in terms of the LL”incident” yes it was his “memories” alone. But the “memories” changed between trial 1 and 2.

And contradicted nurse Williams.