So no extra funding for MH conditions or eating disorders just weight loss jabs!

[Gr3ySkies]

It’s nuts!

So many people struggling with quite severe MH conditions on massive waiting lists getting nothing.

People dying of EDS. Because there are no inpatient beds and huge waits for treatment but apparantly we can fund weight loss jabs to anybody who wants them. 🤔

Even though we know very little about the long term impact.

Well, this is a goady thread isn't it!

It's not a race to the bottom.

MH is indeed in a terrible state, but the NHS is also way behind other countries both in how MH is treated and how obesity is understood and treated (AND the link between obesity and MH).

I guess people resent obesity treatments though because the perception is it's the patient's own fault and they are therefore not "deserving". But we can say there is a behavioural link to many illnesses and injuries. The NHS doesn't refuse to treat lung cancer or COPD in smokers, the NHS also does things like fix botched plastic surgery jobs that were not done on the NHS, patches people up after being injured doing extreme sports, etc. We could say also there are behavioural links to certain aspects of mental health too. Cannabis induced psychosis, addictions. I have seen many, many patients in my time in the NHS MH world who were totally unwilling to help themselves or change anything to help their children. But we didn't refuse to treat or help them.

The hatred towards people living with overweight and obesity and the moral outrage on this site that the weight loss jags are available is getting old.

I thought these weight loss jabs could, and are, causing a lot of bad side effects in some users?

It doesn’t sound a great idea.

One of my childhood friends became anorexic. She has been in various forms of therapy/treatment for a long time. But has never been able to recover from anorexia, and has admitted she does not want to. She's tired of therapy, tired of being in and out of inpatient services. She manages to stay out of hospital now by eating just enough to maintain a BMI that's around 15. She is tall as well, and looks skeletal.

MH services have kept trying, but she's not engaged with treatment beyond a very passive, surface level. She accepts she will die from anorexia or she'll get ill with something she can't recover from. It's incredibly sad, and the reasons that keep her attached to her ED incredibly complicated. She has often said she wishes euthanasia were available like it is in the Netherlands. She gave up on herself, a long time ago, and a long time before MH services accepted she wasn't going to engage with treatment beyond getting to a level where she didn't have to be an inpatient. She has capacity. They can't force her to recover.

I've had to accept she will die relatively young at some stage, we are both in our mid 40s now. It's hard to look at photos of when we were kids, before she started restricting (around 15).

Don’t think so. I have kids on multiple lengthy NHS waiting lists for a variety of things. I thought the NHS was strapped for cash.Those with Anorexia and MH struggles have to want to get better apparently but those with obesity just get an expensive jab. Many people with obesity do battle and succeed in overcoming it. Spending a fortune on NHS funding on a jab without changing lifestyle is ludicrous. Funding both the jab and treating MH needs with obesity alongside lifestyle change is ludicrously expensive in the current climate.

I understand you’re upset, but I think you’re not thinking rationally, reading the responses and understanding. People have really tried fo explain how due to the scale of the obesity epedemic that by spending a small amount of weight loss injections the nhs can likely save a huge amount in nhs costs when the medical treatments associated with obesity lessen. Even keir starmer did a statement yesterday trying to explain it.

I hope things get better for your family, and you. 💐

Can you really not see the difference between prescribing someone an injector pen they use on themselves at home and the in-patient beds you mention in your OP?

The NHS finances are mismanaged and have been for a long time. It's full of "jobs for the boys", backstairs deals (like the PPE thing) and full of incompetent managers and "change and transformation" consultants.

Where I worked, they paid a small fortune to an EDI consultant who said we should all wear rainbow badges and display pronouns and go on training that told us all white people are racist. (I don't disagree about systemic racism, and unconscious bias, but this training course was actually borderline abusive). It did nothing to increase inclusivity or change bad attitudes in the team - it made them more entrenched, if anything, because telling people they are horrible for a characteristic they can't help is really not going to make people want to change.

The NHS still funds medications and treatments that other countries regard as out of the ark. It continues to rely heavily on short term CBT in most Talking Therapies services despite there being newer models and integrative approaches that have yielded better results. CBT therapists are paid better than many of the other therapists, and in some cases on par with the psychologists. It's like a bloody religion in there. CBT is good for some things, but it can't fix everything.

It’s not “ludicrously expensive” when you take into consideration how much it costs to care for people with mental health disorders. You can’t compare government investment to household budgets. Only 300 million is invested in this trial. According to 2020 research paper, it costs 11.6 billion annually to treat people with schizophrenia, 5,6 billion to treat people with bipolar disorder. 300 million is like dropping £3 on a cup of coffee and worrying how it will impact paying your rent for a year.

This has been explained a number of times, but this research trial is being funded by the drug company, Lily, and no money is coming from NHS funds. It's a trial to look at whether use of the drugs improve a number of factors, including - to quote the proposal outline - "health-related quality of life and changes in participants' employment status and sick days from work."

So, the clarify, no NHS money is being used in the trial.

It will save a fortune if it becomes a line of treatment

Obesity in and of itself kills more people than EDs do, but within the group of the obese are also people with EDs as well, or dont you know this?

Its not tied to unemployment at all.

It isn’t a small amount though is it. Even obesity doctors are concerned about the cost.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y03p4xlx8o

Did you read the article? They are not concerned about the cost, they are saying that we need even more money invested into offering these jabs to wider population. Which is not a position you agree with so I don't see how you can present this article as an argument to support your view.

These threads over the last few days are hilarious with each OP frothing and self righteous at the fatties, presenting ludicrous illogical arguments over and over again.

Very entertaining.

@Gr3ySkies a recent research paper estimates that Type 2 diabetes cost the NHS £14 billion in the year 2021-22. That is in just ONE year. https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2024/research/diabetes-cost-to-uk/#:~:text=Diabetes%20cost%20the%20UK%20almost,indirect%20costs%20of%20the%20disease. The main cause of Type 2 diabetes is obesity.

The trial that you are referring to is not even going to be Government funded it will be funded by Lilly, the drug maker.

There are massive problems with the NHS, but I honestly don't think that this trial is where your ire should be targetted.

This is about money, big pharma and the influence they have on government spending. There's so much money to be made. Look at the fight that was involved in getting the sugar in drinks reduced. The government would do better in reducing the additives in some foods that makes them addictive. Encourage sporting activities for young people, improving nutrition in schools, ban fast food outlets in the vicinity of schools, prevent weight gain in the first place.

OP, you have missed the key point: cost/benefit to the taxpayer. We need to do the right thing by the NHS as a whole.

£175 a month, administered by the outpatient themselves, is cheap at the price of it brings the nation’s weight down and health up. Of course we should be looking at that. And it isn’t a ‘sticking plaster’ - the jabs bring actual real benefit.

MH, inpatient, repeat stays, etc. of course needed. But it would be crazy if the government/taxpayer ignored the massive potential win of the jabs.

Is it not food choices too which won’t necessarily change?Doctors have voiced concerns re users putting weight back on when jab usage ends.

Any NHS wait list ends up costing the nhs more. There seems to be a huge discrepancy re what is deemed important and what ismt. Child mental health, adult mental health don’t seem to be of any concern at all. I’m pretty disgusted with labour. Is this all they consider important and can come up with?

I think , with respect. As I understand what you’re going through, have possibly misunderstood the nuance between tn4 article and what’s being said.

these drugs will be available via weight management services, which are over subscribed due to the obesity epidemic. Another 3000 people trying to join the queue and go through this is impossible without extra support in this arena.

this doesn’t mean that they think longer term it won’t save the nhs billions. They are pointing out the immediate issue. Which is very different.

does this make sense? If you think about it logically. If you get people on these drugs, then after several months they no longer need the service. They don’t need beds or drugs for knee replacements, for heart attack, cancer decreases, blood pressure meds. It all goes down. But it takes time.

and you need the resources to get people on the drugs. To prescribe them, to support the patient.

what people are telling uou is mid to long term this is a life saver, a cost saver, in the billions. Short term though the government needs to invest and direct resources to implementing.

@Gr3ySkies Lilly have made a huge investment in the UK. The deal was announced on Monday. It is going to bring money and jobs into the UK. The trial is clearly part of the deal. This really doesn't have very much to do with what Labour could come up with.

The NHS is in dire straits and it was never likely that any Government were going to fix that in 4 months. This is a trial funded by someone else. The media are busy whipping up hatred for the fat and the unemployed, just to get headlines. I understand your distress at the lack of help for so many health issues, but this particular trial will not be removing anything from the NHS at the moment.

Before the injections came out. The pills were very popular. My mum was on them. Like the injections the Dr tells you to avoid fatty foods. My mum like many others didn't listen and ended up on the toilet for hours every day, with diarrhoea. This was not teaching her how to eat better. When she came off them, she put it all back on. People with eating disorders need counselling and nutrition advice. Pills and injections aren't long term nor do they teach how to eat better.

OP, the NHS has to do the maths even if you don’t’.

Someone taking a £175 weight loss jab is likely to lose weight that week. As in, an immediate result.

MH, ED, etc a much slower cost intensive regime.

The suggestion that this research should not be done because SEDU waiting lists are so long is ludicrous. The zero sum thinking from OP and others makes me worry about people's lack of understanding and unwillingness to engage. The NHS has many problems. Therefore many things should be trialled to see if they work. This should not be difficult to comprehend.

And yes, the loathing for fat people that shines through all these threads is foul.

The investment is coming from the manufacturers not the government...

Is it not because

• Poor mental health is notoriously hard to treat, additional money is not necessarily going to improve outcomes at a population level.
• Obesity is fairly easy to treat with the new drugs and there’s a significant knock on effect of improved co-morbidities. It’s cheaper to issue Wegovy than to treat these co-morbidities once medicine, hospital treatment and disability benefits are taken into account.

If it “only” cost £175 per month to fix someone’s mental health issues with clear population level resolution of the problem then I’m sure the government would jump on it.

Big pharma taking over

All the press is harping on about at the min is medicating people to within an inch of their lives. It makes me incredibly uncomfortable.

Weight loss injections are not a short term prospect. The reality is that people end up on them for life.

Who is winning with that approach? It's not the individual nor the NHS - because they will have other issues that come off the back of this. Yes it's been tested for diabetes for a fair while. Not for anything else to decide long term effects.