So no extra funding for MH conditions or eating disorders just weight loss jabs!

[Gr3ySkies]

It’s nuts!

So many people struggling with quite severe MH conditions on massive waiting lists getting nothing.

People dying of EDS. Because there are no inpatient beds and huge waits for treatment but apparantly we can fund weight loss jabs to anybody who wants them. 🤔

Even though we know very little about the long term impact.

I read it. I don’t need you to now quote it and post it again. I’m fully literate, it still doesn’t say what you’re saying, no matter what format you post it in.

What is fascinating me about this is that NICE explicitly doesn't consider societal benefits such as ability to work when assessing the cost effectiveness of a drug. Therefore even if the trial demonstrates this benefit of WL drugs it's unclear to me how the data will be used, as under the current model it won't influence NICE reimbursement recommendations.

I'm not saying it isn't. A poster questioned how someone unable to work can afford to be obese. It's in work poverty that seems to be fueling obesity according to research.

Perhaps it's just me @TheBoldHelper , who finds it helpful to include some relevant quotes from a linked article. I don't always have time to read through all of an article linked (glad though that you did).

I assumed perhaps, if not you, at least some other posters might be the same as me - and might find it helpful or interesting if I directly posted some quotes. If I'm actually the only person who finds that useful however, I apologise to everyone else on here for the possibly very boring posts from me!

TheBold I'm not sure which facts you don't believe/agree with, but I need to get offline now anyway (and also don't fancy an argument with a stranger online) so I'll leave the thread for now.

What a stupid pointless post designed just to get a rise out of people.

Beds cost a fortune. Staging costs a fortune m psychiatrists cost a fortune. If they didn't people would pay privately. The weight loss injections are incredibly incredibly cheap, and pretty much gairenteed to be effective. Therapy, in patient treatments for ed and other conditions you believe are being under funded are notoriously very very hard to treat.

You saying the medical equivalent of nobody should be allowed to take ibuprofen because we can't find a pain killer that is 100 percent effective for burn victims.

Lilly have just announced a huge investment in the UK so it seems timely (?) that the government are now extolling the virtues of Mounjaro!

She really does not only need 1100 calories. You’re confusing her BMR with calories needed.

Yes I agree, they should chain all these people wanting to be on these injections to treadmills left on 24/7 till they loose the weight instead.
Save the NHS a fortune wouldn't it?

I've spent time with a friend and her family of 5 who love junk food, she needed masses of cupboard for the multipacks, packaged food takes up way more space. Kitchen facilities - you need a hob and preferable an oven (although perhaps a microwave or air fryer), granted. Pots and pans are available in charity shops for peanuts. You don't have to batch cook to eat healthily.

Low-income neighbourhoods usually lack full-service grocery stores and farmers’ markets that can provide fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and low-fat dairy products. As an alternative there are more convenience stores. You don't need a farmer's market for cheap fruit, veg and ingredients. A 'big' supermarket has it all. Online delivery is available in most of the UK
Healthy foods when available are usually more expensive. Alternatives of refined grains, added sugars, and fats are inexpensive and readily available in low-income communities. First sentence isn't true. Healthy foods can be very cheap ingredients. Again, may need to use big supermarkets for the supplies.
Lack of filling and nutritious foods also means eating less or skipping meals. This also means that when food is available there is overeating. This leads to cycles of food restriction or deprivation followed by overeating. Linked to above. Snacks and quick meals can be filling, nutritious and cheap,
Lack or limited access to healthcare. This results in lack of diagnosis and treatment of emerging obesity. Bit of a separate issue.
Lack of physical activity is also common among low income neighbourhoods. There are fewer parks, gymnasiums, bike paths. Unsafe neighbourhoods also mean children get less time to spend out of doors playing. Walking is free.
Low-income families also face high levels of stress due to food insecurity, financial pressures, lack of access to health care, inadequate transportation, poor housing and surrounding neighbourhood violence. Stress may lead to weight gain and obesity as well. Stress also leads to weight loss.

I've spent time with a friend and her family of 5 who love junk food, she needed masses of cupboard for the multipacks, packaged food takes up way more space.
Anecdotes aren't the same as statistical facts. Many people have tiny flats, some with limited kitchen facilities and almost no storage (cupboards, freezers etc).

A 'big' supermarket has it all. Online delivery is available in most of the UK

Not everyone lives near a big supermarket. Some deprived areas in particular have only small convenience stores nearby. These stores have limited stock and it's often mainly unhealthy processed food (and the food they stock is sold at higher prices than large supermarkets). Not everyone is able to drive or can afford to. Online deliveries often have minimum order costs.

The point about food restriction and deprivation then overeating, is that a) it affects metabolism, b) it's not a choice - people are literally unable to afford regular stable meals so get trapped in that cycle. Of course people who face periods of limited food might overeat or eat cheap unhealthy processed food when they do have some food.

And also psychological impact is relevant. Human beings are not feelingless robots. So yes sometimes people in horrible circumstances and who are suffering chronic stress have a psychological crutch, which is for some people junk food.

Address the causes of people's horrible circumstances and chronic stress,whether poverty or other trauma, and that addresses the symptoms (obesity, or whatever other symptom someone might have).

Limited mobility due to NHS delays or failings is not a separate issue. As the article says, it leads to obesity due to lack of or delayed diagnoses and treatment. And as the article says people in poverty often have less access to timely and effective healthcare.

As you say below
Walking is free.
Except it's not always possible due to the issues above - limited or delayed access to healthcare. So, people with health conditions that limit mobility and/or cause pain are unable to walk or can only do a very limited amount. So they gain weight - due to waiting too long for the right NHS diagnosis and treatment.

Also re the links to poverty. One reason for less walking is, as the article said Unsafe neighbourhoods

I'm not claiming the above issues are the only causes of obesity. Nor am I saying nobody should be offered the weight loss drugs.

What I am saying is that no issue, obesity or anything else, is solved by only treating the symptom and not the cause. And also that lifestyle is often not the person's choice.

The need is for a holistic approach - including, when relevant, the environmental/social causes and issues.

Nobody should be giving up on Anorexics. Somebody with Anorexia being offered palliative care is somebody who didn’t get the right treatment or in some cases any treatment or treatment far too late.

Jabs don’t make people eat healthier. Without proper treatment people will carry on eating the same old shit but less of it.

It’s a very small trial to see if the weight loss jab will pay for itself through increased return to work force.

Being obese is often linked to mental health and neuro divergency. If you have ADHD you are 5 times more likely to be overweight. Dr Stephen Porges has spoken extensively about the interaction of chewing and the vagus nerve in relation to calming the parasympathetic nervous system. Professor Van Del Kolk in his ground breaking research into PTSD notes the strong correlation between attending a surgical weight loss clinic and experiencing child abuse. Interestingly there is increasing anecdotal evidence of the drug easing ADHD symptoms.,

Many who are overweight suffer from various eating disorders.

Those clinging to biblical notions of deadly sins being the cause of the obesity epidemic in this country are as out of touch as someone recommending leeches or balancing the humours.

The problem is that those who don’t experience the many barriers to losing weight often demonise those who struggle ( quite literally). Those same people then don’t want to admit the obesity epidemic stems from causes other than being lazy and greedy.

Do you know what NICE is? It's a decision making body that spends years collecting evidence, monitoring drug company trials, and looking at cost impact of healthcare spending. They have ethicists, patient groups, mental health experts, obesity experts that spend years debating decisions like this. In particular they look at things like the impact of obesity on quality of life. How it leads to mental health issues and eating disorders etc. They examine everything in depth. Meetings are often made public. ultimately they make decisions on the most impact for their spending.

Maybe you should Google things before you make such lazy assumptions.

Actually the jabs do impact on what many people eat. Many report not wanting alcohol , greasy and high sugar foods make many feel ill so are avoided. Yes there is a calorie restriction needed which usually causes people to prioritise food groups. This calorie deficit is achievable because of the reduction in food noise.

With anorexia and mental health problems (I’ve suffered from both) there is an element of input needed from the sufferer. This involves a willingness to participate in available treatments. Where this doesn’t happen an outside person cannot cure the patient, treatment for these things is a partnership. - it’s a multifaceted treatment programme which is needed.

And not leaving young people without the proper treatment for far too long.

I am confused. They are putting money into helping people with disordered eating.

No they’re not. Disordered eating needs proper treatment not a sticking plaster.

The jabs shouldn’t just be a Sticking plaster. Obviously some people may use them as that. But you could say that for lots of things like therapy. People don’t really engage in it, just get through it.

How long have you been on the jabs?

OP, I really feel sorry for you. It must be hideous to see your daughter wasting away and struggling to access help. You must be so worried and stay awake at night.

I can see how this stuff might make you feel angry. Seeing people that are eating so much they are putting their health at risk and then having an injection to seemingly sort the problem out, must jar when your daughter is so thin and unwell. But the two are not directly related.

If I’m honest, I occasionally think society is ruined. On one side of the globe we have people starving to death because there is not enough food. Whilst on the other side we have people overeating and then injecting themselves to lose weight. This is a big problem for the world, but I do not blame individuals.

Whilst I can understand why you feel the way you feel, try and reframe it. Think of it as these injections reducing the cost for the NHS on obesity-related illnesses. That might free up money for mental health care. We can hope anyway.

I wish you all the best for your girl. Anorexia can cause such damage to families. I am sorry x

In an ideal world everyone would have fully funded treatment for their illness. However, we live in a situation where money is not unlimited, therefore decisions need to be made as to how that limited money should be spent.

The drug is relatively cheap compared with many others. It is certainly cheaper than many of the treatments for obesity complications. Coupled with the anticipated increased productivity and the very widespread nature of the obesity epidemic the government would be stupid not to try this. If there was a drug which had the same effect on anorexia or mental health problems then I expect the government would run similar trials.

The NHS don’t really know what to do with illnesses which require multifaceted treatment of mind body and spirit. Like anorexia, mental health and obesity. These drugs offer some help with the physical side of obesity, it will still be up to the individual to mend their mind and spirit in order to sustain any loss.

@LivelyMauveHedgehog

Crikey, that's the question. I have no idea. Unhappiness? A total lack of control of everything else and that being the only thing I can truly maintain. I have everything in life that should make me happy. I have a fantastic life, everything I need and more. And yet, there is a cog that's not working or a chip that's missing that causes me to sabotage my very existence. I can spend hours each day picking faults over every aspect of my body and then obsessing over 'fixing' it. I have a built in need (not want) to be skinny. I saw a gp last year (here you never get to see the same one) who spent 5 minutes listening to me cry and tell him and then offered sertraline and told me, and actually said the words 'I don't know how to deal with you'. Therapy isn't currently working. It has in the past. So, to answer your question. I don't know.

You are angry at totally wrong thing here OP.

Funding for EDs is a separate issue but absolutely does need tackled. My sister died in 2018 aged 21 from ED. She'd been involved with cahms throughout her teenage years and was even sectioned at one point but there was just no route cause treatment and its disgusting.
However, that's not to say weight loss drugs don't play a massive part in society. My friend has ED but on the other side of the spectrum and she's been using mounjaro for the last few months and it's given her such a boost.
She's privately funded and I do think that whether privately funded or NHS there should be some level of MH or dietetics support because my worry is it will help people lose weight but with no treatment for the route cause of the obesity it won't actually change the thinking and behaviours long term.
It's also unfair to think of them as an easy way out. She had a lot of side effects and a rough first couple of weeks on them.

Op, the root causes of MH issues as many and varied. They vary from

Social media
Bullying
Crap parenting
Obsession with body image
Work stress
Childhood trauma
Any other trauma
Poor housing
Over crowding
The capitalist society
Lack of exercise
Drug abuse
Religion
Unemployment
Poverty

And those are just for starters. How do you think the govt are going to sort all of those in one easy move?

However, weightloss pills may help some get back into work, solving poverty, unemployment and homelessness for that group, while generating revenue or at least reducing deficit. Freeing money to sort out the next few issues, and so on.

I'm more concerned that people will be pushed to try a relatively untested medication by the state. Not a situation I would want to be in.