So no extra funding for MH conditions or eating disorders just weight loss jabs!

[Gr3ySkies]

It’s nuts!

So many people struggling with quite severe MH conditions on massive waiting lists getting nothing.

People dying of EDS. Because there are no inpatient beds and huge waits for treatment but apparantly we can fund weight loss jabs to anybody who wants them. 🤔

Even though we know very little about the long term impact.

Haven't read the thread but I agree with you OP.

I'm not necessarily against access to weight loss drugs (although I do have concerns re potentially as yet unknown long-term health effects) but only when appropriate. And definitely not as an ineffective alternative to prompt access to effective healthcare - physical or mental health.

Millions of people are on NHS waiting lists. Related to that there's people who are more ill and in need of more and longer term healthcare due to the delays and/or misdiagnoses and doctor fobbing off. Addressing this will help people's health (and save the economy £££££).

Many of those people on waiting lists gain weight...due to limited mobility caused by pain, or by other symptoms of their health conditions.

Separately one of the biggest causes of obesity is poverty.

Poverty causes stress... which causes weight gain, due to increased cortisol. It's also harder to eat healthily, because unhealthy processed food is often cheaper, and because poverty often means limited cooking or storage access (so, eg. no cost saving batch cooking).

Re the links with mental health (and poverty):

Stress really can cause weight gain — and it's not about eating

Constant stress can pump up the number of fat cells we generate, a lab study suggests.

https://www.today.com/today/amp/tdna126249

Weight loss drugs might help some people in some circumstances, but they won't help with the issues above. Not on individual levels, nor with the economy.

To address mental (and physical) ill health, and poverty, one of the biggest priorities needs to be more council housing asap. Because bad or insecure housing is a major cause of ill health. And separately (but related), these housing issues cost the economy billions.

This is illogical.

firstly these type of drugs have been used for years for other ailments, namely diabetes.

secondly obese people cause the nhs so much money, from anything like the blood pressure meds, to a knee replacement or cancer treatment. So curing it at its source will reduce those needing treatment, thus reducing and likely removing waiting lists, and free up resources for enhanced treatment for other ailments.

what you’re saying is fix the symptom. What the medication does is fix the root cause.

@TheBoldHelper

secondly obese people cause the nhs so much money

Nope. The NHS delays and misdiagnoses and doctor fobbing off culture costs people their health - including healthy weight - and as a consequence costs so much money.

Costs so much money, due to people being left waiting so long for diagnosis and treatment. So they're in worse health and in need of more (and more expensive) and longer term care, by the time they're actually correctly diagnosed and treated.

This includes the many people who gain weight because of limited mobility (so unable to exercise) due to pain. Or gain weight as a symptom of their health condition. Which then increases their risk of the conditions you mentioned, i.e. diabetes. All because of being left waiting too long for diagnosis and treatment

Like you say the need is to fix the cause, not the symptom. And in many cases (of course, not all cases) the weight loss jab is doing the opposite. It's fixing the symptom, not the cause.

And as you can see from the link I gave in my previous post, chronic stress can cause weight gain. And a major cause of chronic stress is poverty. Linked to that is housing.

Want to save the economy billions? Then address poverty and housing issues - including more council housing asap. (NB. As published in the British Medical Journal, bad or insecure housing harms health - so costs the economy a significant amount of money).

What do you think is the cause of it?

You mention cancer. Prolonged stress (eg. caused by poverty) can increase the risk of cancer.

Addressing poverty - including the urgent need for more council housing, would help people re their health - and reduce NHS costs, so saving the economy billions.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/cancer/prolonged-stress-may-increase-the-risk-of-death-from-cancer

Sign, yes stress, poverty etc can all cause weight gain. But let’s be hugely honest, so can sitting on your arse too much and eating too much. And for a huge amount of people that’s the issue. I’m one of them. I’m not poor, I’m not stressed, I don’t have any mental health problems. But menopause, and working from home has made me change my lifestyle habits and gain. And I can honestly say it’s the same for every single one of my friends suffering from weight gain.

that doesn’t mean obesity doesn’t have other causes, but no one is going to buy those are the main causes. So yes. Weight loss injections fixes the root cause. Not the symptom for those millions of people.

Some of the posters are a little harsh on op. Her daughter has the most dangerous mental health condition of all, which statistically kills the most people. She is not getting the help she needs and if help doesn't come her daughter will die. She will already have caused irreversible damage to her body. There is very little funding and help available for anorexia, and op is clearly desperate. Personally, I can fully understand her despair.

On the flip side, I've seen first hand that obesity is resulting in more strain on the NHS than pretty much anything else. If anything can be done to genuinely reduce this then perhaps money can be freed up to tackle other things.

The Government announcement has nothing to do with mental health or Ehlers-Danlos syndromes. A big deal has been done with pharmaceutical giant Lilly to invest in the UK. Clearly part of that deal is some kind of trial of weightloss injections. This won't be Government funded. There is no money to be freed up for other things. Lilly make weight loss injections, they don't treat mental health or EDS.

There is a conflation of issues here with the OP thinking that the Government is spending tax payers money on this, when it is unlikely that they will be. It will be Lilly.

This is not meant as a dig in any way, but how on earth is she affording to be overweight to such a significant degree if she's out of work? How does she afford so much food? I'm struggling to keep weight on my family due to the cost of food - I've had to cut out absolutely everything unnecessary like crisps, chocolate, orange squash, fresh orange juice etc and they no longer take snacks to school. That's with 2 parents working with average or above average incomes.

Exactly this, it's awful for the OP.

Ironically, there are lots of meds to increase appetite but this is the last thing an anorexic ed sufferer would willingly take. It's not the same sort of eating disorder

Preventative health is cheaper than treating lifelong diabetes, heart attack/disease, joint replacement.
However, I do partly agree. My DD is using the injections, she is at the higher end of being overweight. But, she is eating better and going to the gym/swimming/hiking. Unless major lifestyle changes are implemented, then the weight will be put back on as soon as the injections stop. Then a lot if people will need their gall bladder removing. The injections make you not want to smoke/drink/vape, so they can be privately funded. I think a reduced cost should have been the way to go, unless there are mobility issues.

EDs = eating disorders in OPs post, not ehlers danlos syndrome

How about considering that a fair chunk of obesity IS an eating disorder. That it IS a mental health disorder, just like addiction, and these drugs will help them.

Are you like this about people being offered drugs for smoking cessation?

There is a trial of 3000 people been announced. It is an RCT, a research clinical trial, and as such, is funded like any other RCT and has very strict guidelines.

But I bet you're one of the awful bitter people who hate to see those who are overweight, for what ever reason, receive help. There are so many other threads like this one you could go and whine on.

Apologies @Angelofmycoins I always thought EDS was the medical abbreviation for Ehlers Danlos Syndromes.

It is. ED is also used for erectile dysfunction on the sex board. V confusing.

Weight loss jabs are much cheaper than beds in hospitals and training staff for MH support and in hospital care. You are being unrealistic to think that politicians will invest in complex long term solutions.

Investing in weight loss jabs isn’t a bad thing. Slimmer people are less likely to have issues like heart attacks so the weight loss jabs could save the NHS money long term.

Price up the 1.5kg of frozen chips, white bread, cheap pies, cheap pizzas, cheap sugary cereal, full sugar drinks, noodles, rice and packs of biscuits in the likes of farm foods. At 5"1' and not moving she only needs around 1100 calories. Eating is expensive if you eat healthy. If you go to food banks you get high calorie foods. Obesity is linked to poverty across Europe.

Sure, but again people are fat across the wealth spectrum let’s not pretend otherwise.

All food has gone up, but buying cheap ingredients and making healthy simple food is 100% possible for low budgets.

Poverty and chronic stress (often, but not always interlinked) are two of the biggest causes of obesity. Maybe not on MN (which tends to be fairly middle class - although obviously there's many people on here who don't fit that stereotype of MN). But in general, yes.

Also, it is a fact that many many people gain weight because of limited mobility and/or pain - caused by NHS delays or misdiagnoses.

Like I said, in some circumstances weight loss drugs might be appropriate. But not as an alternative to treating the cause - be it poverty and/or chronic stress, or an undiagnosed or untreated (due to NHS delays or doctor fobbing off) health conditions Mental or physical health.

This is an interesting link

https://www.news-medical.net/health/What-is-obesity-paradox.aspx

While all segments of the population are affected by obesity, low-income and food insecure people are especially vulnerable.

I’m not sure that article says what you think it says. It certainly doesn’t say what you’re saying, it says there is a link, it does not say it is the major cause, neither does your other article.

I posted about the increased difficulty in accessing a healthy diet when in poverty upthread. For example the lack of proper kitchen facilities or storage space (for batch cooking). The article I later posted also notes these issues. As it says:

Low-income neighbourhoods usually lack full-service grocery stores and farmers’ markets that can provide fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and low-fat dairy products. As an alternative there are more convenience stores.

Healthy foods when available are usually more expensive. Alternatives of refined grains, added sugars, and fats are inexpensive and readily available in low-income communities.

Lack of filling and nutritious foods also means eating less or skipping meals. This also means that when food is available there is overeating. This leads to cycles of food restriction or deprivation followed by overeating.

Lack or limited access to healthcare. This results in lack of diagnosis and treatment of emerging obesity.

Lack of physical activity is also common among low income neighbourhoods. There are fewer parks, gymnasiums, bike paths. Unsafe neighbourhoods also mean children get less time to spend out of doors playing.

Low-income families also face high levels of stress due to food insecurity, financial pressures, lack of access to health care, inadequate transportation, poor housing and surrounding neighbourhood violence. Stress may lead to weight gain and obesity as well.

@TheBoldHelper I just posted some relevant quotes from the article.

But I'm guessing you looked at the opening paragraphs - about the "obesity paradox"? I think it's quite interesting and I wonder why it's the case. (The information about the major links between poverty and obesity are discussed in the paragraphs after the obesity paradox stuff).

The obesity paradox is a finding that reveals that although obesity is a major risk factor in the development of several conditions like heart disease, and peripheral vascular disease, in cases of severe heart conditions like heart attack (myocardial infarction) or heart failure (congestive heart failure), obese individuals have a survival benefit over those who are not-obese.

The paradox also shows that obese patients tend to fare better after certain surgical procedures, such as coronary artery bypass surgery for multiple artery blockages in the heart compared to the non-obese individuals.

Another major finding reveals that obese men who have long term high blood pressure are seen to live longer than men of normal weight. When controlled for other confounding factors that may have affected the results like age, medical care, or therapy, it is seen that obese individuals have the benefit of surviving longer than non obese individuals. This is termed as the obesity paradox.

Exactly. It's statistically kills the most sufferers.

Which isn't necessarily because of the failings of MH services but because it's a really dangerous illness. The mortality rates are still very high in countries with private healthcare.

And I am hugely sympathetic but the thing is, a lot of people want MH conditions to be treated the same as physical health conditions in acknowledging the mental illness as a disability and just as serious in it's effects on education, work, life in general.

But also, there is still this idea which does feed into the stigma around MH issues that they are different in terms of there must be and element of control for the sufferer or the people treating it so therefore a way for MH services to always be able to make them better, if they had more funding, or if there was better therapy, or this or that.

And often there isn't. Like some people with cancer respond to treatment and recover and some don't. And 99% of the time, people don't blame health services for it, they just accept it's a disease that can't always be treated successfully.

But with MH there's this idea that it can always be treated, most people can recover etc if ....

We can't say metal illness should be considered as serious as physical illness and should be treated the same till we accept mental illnesses can also result in chronic disability and death despite the best efforts of the health services.

OP said anorexia nervosa patients were being offered palliative care as a treatment. I don't think that's the case at all. I think MH services recognise they're battling an illness with horrendous outcomes and only suggest palliative care when they've already tried what is available and exhausted the options.

Which most people would see as reasonable with cancer, but don't when its anorexia. And it's all incredibly sad.