Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Thread gallery
24
Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 14:02

". In May, Sharif and Batool applied, with Domin’s (Sara's birth mother) consent, for Sara and her sibling to live with them. In an report ordered by the family court on Sara’s welfare, the council recorded that Sara had disclosed physical assaults by Domin, and concluded that the mother had a low capacity to meet Sara’s needs.

It recommended that Sara should live with Sharif and Batool and have supervised contact once a fortnight with Domin.

A judge agreed with this report and granted Sharif and Batool custody, with Batool supervising the visits. At a hearing at Guildford family court on 9 October 2019, the judge praised Batool, saying it was “amazing” she could supervise the visits..."

bombastix · 12/12/2024 14:04

The breathless tone of the judge’s remarks is suggestive is it not? What a fool that person was, and what judgment did they really display?

bombastix · 12/12/2024 14:06

It was “amazing” because it meant the case was “solved”.

None of us would want someone like this to judge the future of our children

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 14:09

And yet the response is to talk about children taken and in to home education, as being the issue, not no one followed known concerns about this child up, and not how the hell did this situation ever evolve in the first place?
Look over there, not over here, again and again and again.

As long as we allow this level of gaslighting, then no it will never end.

roxyro · 12/12/2024 17:39

Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 09:24

This morning on R4 Today they had a feature on this. With the judge decision to put her back with the father in 2019, it looks like the judge in effect was barred from putting the child with anyone other than the parent as they seem to have brought the case to family courts. Section 37 of the children's act was mentioned that Parliament specifically took that power away

Just before that they had Thought for the Day from Jane Manfredi in how terrible it is that a child she taught who was disruptive ended up excluded and was now in prison, and how we should ask offenders "how did you get here?" Instead of "what did you do?" And how those who've done even terrible things need second chances..
. which I realise was her trying to be topical like on the announcement yesterday about more prison places but, well, applying that to this case, Urfan Sharif had 2nd chances. Lots of them. Maybe she could let him take up residence with her instead of a custodial sentence and let him retrain as a teacher as an act of godly forgiveness and compassion?

Sharif could have had 200 chances but it wouldn’t have made the slightest bit of difference.

He was beating a child with a cricket bat - a little girl. It’s sadism. It’s his character and mindset. What came out in court was that he beat her with the pole when she lay dying in the stepmother’s lap. He will have the genetics from his parents and the upbringing with them and he won’t feel he’s done anything wrong; just that it ended up wrong - for him. He’s one of those men who just react violently to any set back or disappointment in his life. Basically, he should just be put down.

TheTwirlyPoos · 12/12/2024 17:52

roxyro · 12/12/2024 17:39

Sharif could have had 200 chances but it wouldn’t have made the slightest bit of difference.

He was beating a child with a cricket bat - a little girl. It’s sadism. It’s his character and mindset. What came out in court was that he beat her with the pole when she lay dying in the stepmother’s lap. He will have the genetics from his parents and the upbringing with them and he won’t feel he’s done anything wrong; just that it ended up wrong - for him. He’s one of those men who just react violently to any set back or disappointment in his life. Basically, he should just be put down.

Totally agree. I very much hope they both get a whole life tariff but I doubt they will

Jukeboxjive · 12/12/2024 18:11

@roxyro i agree..

It's just who he is.
I don't believe in the death penalty but as I've got older and hear cases like this I do think, why?
Why keep him alive?
Why not use the money it will take to feed and house and clothe him for the next however many years and use that to help dc??

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 18:13

I think it's also a common misconception that you can send an abuser on a course or to some counselling.

I've known abusive men through firsthand experience and none of them have the capacity to change.

They enjoy the violence and degradation of their victims too much.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 18:17

Why were they allowed to stay after having convictions? It appears there is no way to deport convicted criminals out of this country.

Vinvertebrate · 12/12/2024 18:21

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 18:13

I think it's also a common misconception that you can send an abuser on a course or to some counselling.

I've known abusive men through firsthand experience and none of them have the capacity to change.

They enjoy the violence and degradation of their victims too much.

Edited

Agreed. And I’ve noticed since the “overcrowded prisons in crisis” headlines that the rent-a-handwringer mob are popping up constantly on R4 to tell us how beastly prison is, that it doesn’t work, and that redemption and rehabilitation is the way forward.

When it comes to monsters like Sharif, that is for the birds.

bombastix · 12/12/2024 18:33

A lot of people make money running these courses. They are bullshit imo when it comes to violence. Most violent people who hurt someone vulnerable do it precisely because they can get away with it, and also because they enjoy the sense of power.

Parenting courses, also bullshit imo, also with “agreements not to use violence against children”. They should have been prosecuted years earlier for this evil conduct

Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 19:23

Vinvertebrate · 12/12/2024 18:21

Agreed. And I’ve noticed since the “overcrowded prisons in crisis” headlines that the rent-a-handwringer mob are popping up constantly on R4 to tell us how beastly prison is, that it doesn’t work, and that redemption and rehabilitation is the way forward.

When it comes to monsters like Sharif, that is for the birds.

Oh the Reith Lectures from Professor Gwen Adshead is the zenith of that, she has that same Lady Bountiful RP gracious noblesse oblige voice ( think Thatcher trying to sound sincere) as Manfredi when she's admonishing those who haven't seen the light on these things

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 19:40

This extremely sinister man came to the UK on the pretext of "studying" then groomed an EU citizen who had learning difficulties to marry him with the sole purpose of staying here and in spite of committing crimes, domestic abuse etc was allowed to stay here. No wonder the whole world takes the piss out of us. Call me a racist if you like.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 19:43

No doubt he got Legal Aid for his defence.

Alltheyearround · 12/12/2024 21:04

Elleherd · 11/12/2024 23:09

No that's not what I believe. The abuse clearly ramped up after they took her out until she was dead.
But 'professional eyes' as you refer to them where already on her all the time she was being beaten up at school.
They where on her when she was so badly battered that Batool said she couldn't send her in as she was "battered black" and it made no difference.
They where on her when she was withdrawn and those same eyes decided not to refer her withdrawal to SS because she 'looked OK' to them.

They were rightly concerned but not enough, partly because this idea that as long as a child has been red flagged and people are aware, that alone somehow makes it safer for the child. It doesn't.

She wasn't hidden away, she was known to be at home where those professional eyes felt she was ok to be, even though they were concerned when she was at school. Neighbors could hear her screaming, so not that hidden.
Daniel Pelka is another well known abused child who school were very aware of the condition of him but weren't a protective factor to him.
Being known about and schools as 'professional eyes' isn't enough.

Yes, I often think of Daniel Pelka, taking food from bins in school, eating half a teacher's birthday cake. Poor boy was starving in front of their very eyes. It is a haunting case, just as Sara's is.

And the many, many times someone could have intervened, could have tried to join the dots, but didn't.

Professional eyes were looking elsewhere while that wee boy perished, bit by bit, day by day. Week after week.

Lalgarh · 13/12/2024 16:16

Man alive all the special ones this week.

This was one that happened so quickly I don't think anyone had time to get social services involved. It about a month after this man started going out with the child's mum.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/man-who-murdered-partners-two-year-old-daughter-and-took-her-body-to-pub-and-shops-jailed-13272532

I'm thinking about if social services had intervened in the home schooling of Sara Sharif. They absolutely would have kicked off and might have done a Ben Butler about persecution by social services .

I remembered him showing up on This Morning loudly campaigning (they enlisted Max Clifford) for access to his daughter who has been taken into care. It managed to create enough of a fathers for justice type groundswell that he got custody of her.

Then he murdered her in a fit of rage. Well done Mrs Justice Hogg

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36516384.amp

Man who murdered partner's two-year-old daughter before taking her body to pub and shops jailed

Isabella Wheildon's body was discovered in a buggy in a locked bathroom in temporary accommodation and was later found to contain traces of cannabis and cocaine.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/man-who-murdered-partners-two-year-old-daughter-and-took-her-body-to-pub-and-shops-jailed-13272532

greenday16B · 13/12/2024 18:06

No mini hijab involved in this case then?

OctoberOctopus · 14/12/2024 09:12

Lalgarh · 13/12/2024 16:16

Man alive all the special ones this week.

This was one that happened so quickly I don't think anyone had time to get social services involved. It about a month after this man started going out with the child's mum.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/man-who-murdered-partners-two-year-old-daughter-and-took-her-body-to-pub-and-shops-jailed-13272532

I'm thinking about if social services had intervened in the home schooling of Sara Sharif. They absolutely would have kicked off and might have done a Ben Butler about persecution by social services .

I remembered him showing up on This Morning loudly campaigning (they enlisted Max Clifford) for access to his daughter who has been taken into care. It managed to create enough of a fathers for justice type groundswell that he got custody of her.

Then he murdered her in a fit of rage. Well done Mrs Justice Hogg

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36516384.amp

Vile man killed her.
A very short relationship with spineless idiot 'mother' who put her own comforts before her defenceless daughter.

roxyro · 14/12/2024 10:10

Lalgarh · 13/12/2024 16:16

Man alive all the special ones this week.

This was one that happened so quickly I don't think anyone had time to get social services involved. It about a month after this man started going out with the child's mum.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/man-who-murdered-partners-two-year-old-daughter-and-took-her-body-to-pub-and-shops-jailed-13272532

I'm thinking about if social services had intervened in the home schooling of Sara Sharif. They absolutely would have kicked off and might have done a Ben Butler about persecution by social services .

I remembered him showing up on This Morning loudly campaigning (they enlisted Max Clifford) for access to his daughter who has been taken into care. It managed to create enough of a fathers for justice type groundswell that he got custody of her.

Then he murdered her in a fit of rage. Well done Mrs Justice Hogg

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36516384.amp

I remember it well. That poor little girl had been living with her maternal grandparents and was happy and cared for but the courts, in their wisdom, returned her to Butler. How her gp’s must have agonised over what happpened to her.

i remember the video of him in the kitchen ranting and raving into his phone and she was looking up in a dreamy way, quite obviously taking herself off into her own special place in her mind. Bruise on her face as well. It really is heartbreaking and to think the scummy mother stood by him!

roxyro · 14/12/2024 10:52

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 11:06

Exactly, on a school roll or off a school roll, school wasn't going to be the agency that could actually protect her.

An earlier poster asserted that Victoria Climbie was supposedly being home educated. That's incorrect. I was caught up in the inquiry.

She was taken from her parents ironically with the promise of education and a better life. In reality she was to be a ticket to public funds and housing in France, (immigration uses are unclear) and later to public funds and housing and immigration status in the UK. Another child had been selected, but then wasn't available at the time.

She was enrolled in a school in France. The school was rightly concerned that she was often absent and when present, falling asleep and appearing unwell.
They issued a 'Child at Risk Emergency Notification' in February 99.
Victoria was subsequently removed weeks later, supposedly to go to London for 'treatment.'
Instead she was presented the day after arrival in the UK in April as part of a homeless LP family in Ealing under the name Anna, and supposedly the DD of her great aunt Kaouo, who then moved to Brent. A concerned relative made two reports to Brent SS about the condition of the child. In June there were no instantly available school places and she spent her days from up to 7am to 10pm with a childminder, who was then asked to foster her in July.

In June Kouao had met Manning, the driver of a bus she was on, and Kouao moved to his Tottenham flat in July. Manning didn't want Victoria there, and again no close school places available there either. Kouao refused to transport Victoria, so she went onto a list of those waiting for any local school place.

The childminder refused to privately foster her, but kept her overnight. Her adult daughter took her to hospital in the morning because of lots of small injuries, and she was admitted and police and Brent SS informed.
She was removed from the hospital, and her possessions from the childminder, the following day by Kouao.

A week later she was back in hospital for two weeks supposedly having poured a kettle of boiling water over her own head. Two further referrals where made to SS, one by the hospital SW. Yet case SW and a police officer concluded in August she could be safely discharged to Kouao's care. Her known lack of education wasn't considered an issue as it was school holidays.

She was referred to the Tottenham Child and Family Centre who failed to follow up or visit.
In October Victoria's sofabed was thrown out and she started sleeping in the bath/room.
In November after being told only abuse would get them housed, Kouao took Victoria to Haringey SS claiming Manning had sexually abused Victoria.
Kouao recanted allegations the following day, but was told they needed to stay at a friends.
They actually returned to Manning's flat that night, and no follow up visits to Victoria or offers of school places for either there, or the friends address, were subsequently made. No suggestion or claim that she was being home educated by Kouao was made either.
She was at that time sleeping in her own feces and urine tied up in a black sack and being beaten daily with items including shoes, a coat hanger, wooden spoon, a hammer and a bicycle chain. Victoria’s blood was on several walls of the flat, and Manning’s football boots and trainers.
Her skin deteriorated so much that they stopped using the sack because of possible "untoward questions" being asked by those who saw her, though she remained hog tied and mainly in the bath. By January she was being fed still tied up, off a piece of plastic, by pushing her head towards it.

She was next seen by a SW in a hospital the night before she died. Her poor little body simply gave out. She was initially admitted with a temperature of 27 after being taken to see a priest about her 'behavior.'.
She died of hypothermia caused by malnourishment, restricted movement where she was tied up, and damp cold environment - a bath in an unheated, unlit bathroom.
She had 128 separate injuries caused by sharp and blunt items and no part of her body was unaffected. She had been systematically brutalized and tortured to death.

Victoria was declared dead on 25 February 2000, the same day Haringey SS formally closed her case, with her still not offered a school place nor believed to be educated in any way elsewhere. She also wasn't 'hidden away' she was at home, (though supposedly a different one) and taken to France at least twice during her last four months, staying with Kaouo's son, and was under the care of a SW, and a family center that specialized in overseeing children referred to it.

She and Sarah have several commonalities including presenting as bright smiling confident children when nursing injuries, not being currently enrolled in school and coming from ethnic backgrounds, which certainly played their parts. But IMO the biggest is they where children who one way or another where mainly 'procured' for financial, housing, and settlement gains, by a primary abuser, who later involved secondary abusers, and who knew how to run rings around those supposed to protect 'pass the parcel' children, and the systems in place that should have kicked in to specific big red flags waving, just didn't.

I don't disagree with the petitions aims, but it does nothing for those where females are either primary or secondary abusers. It wouldn't have saved Victoria, or my sibling, or many others. Many parts of jigsaws need looking at.

I can’t read all of this because Victoria’s case has given me many sleepless nights in the past. I remember watching a documentary which was heartbreaking. At one stage she was in hospital (only spoke French so communication difficult). A nurse said she had what appeared to be cigarette burns all over her and concerns were raised but then some consultant decided they were scabies bites. When the aunt came to fetch her, poor little Victoria jumped out of bed, terrified and wet herself. Still, they were allowed to take her.

It was noted in that case too, political correctness and fear of racism played a part in the lack of action.

i shall also add that a friend of mine works for the DWP, attending courts for tribunal hearings and she has told me about the children trafficked into the UK and transported from town to town registering with various names etc for benefit purposes. No different from Fagin’s child pickpockets and thieves, Just used as commodities by evil adults to defraud our pathetic system. These children are from all over Europe and the rest of the world. It’s despicable.

bombastix · 14/12/2024 10:55

The Hogg judgment is just another example of the judiciary engaging in a fantasy of a man reformed. This potent fairytale is one that should stop. Men who commit violent crime against children or women are not fit parents. Because the possibility of death is ever present.

The issue is that as a society we like the idea of second chances, and we do not like the idea that some men like brutalizing children. But we have to get over that, and accept that it’s more common that we would wish, and that abusive people all told do not walk around with big signs on their heads. They look like you and me.

greenday16B · 14/12/2024 11:11

It was noted in that case too, political correctness and fear of racism played a part in the lack of action

What, like don't upset them because they are black? Sara, don't upset them because they are Pakastani?

Any half decent professional would have had training in cultural sensitivites.

roxyro · 14/12/2024 11:28

greenday16B · 14/12/2024 11:11

It was noted in that case too, political correctness and fear of racism played a part in the lack of action

What, like don't upset them because they are black? Sara, don't upset them because they are Pakastani?

Any half decent professional would have had training in cultural sensitivites.

Oh come on we’ve seen the shitshow visited upon some when they dare to question certain cultures or communities. Let’s not pretend here.

greenday16B · 14/12/2024 11:34

There is a lot of pretending for sure.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 14/12/2024 18:03

How about corporate manslaughter charges being brought against judges, social services directors and others? Guess how quickly this wouldn't happen again if that were the case. The least we'd expect is that the judge who made the appalling decision to grant this murderer custody is struck off.

Swipe left for the next trending thread