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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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24
Peonies007 · 12/12/2024 07:48

Penguinmouse · 11/12/2024 19:24

This is an awful case. Taking Sara out of education when concerns had been raised is the worst part - there needs to be a safeguard against withdrawal from education when there are concerns and regular contact. School is sadly the safest place for a lot of children.

It might be, but she was murdered in summer holidays.

Peonies007 · 12/12/2024 07:55

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 07:38

I'm sorry to respond when its suggested not engaging further is preferred, but what I'm actually saying has been misrepresented. I'm not asking for a response to my rebuttal of that.

For the record: I'm saying that when a child is in school and both seen to be bruised, and being kept home when too badly bruised, insufficient is done, because it is felt that the child attending school is enough to ensure this can't be happening, even though it is.

We now know that many of the serious injuries where pre Sara's removal from school. She was attending school in pain and with them.

It isn't that I believe 'they should have been allowed to remove her from school and 'hide her away' as you claim I do, it's that I believe other things.

I removed my child from school after broken bones, culminating with them being shot at. There was no dispute as to what had been happening, but the school went to some lengths to try prevent removal, despite talking about planning for the next serious incident. Not how they'd prevent it happening, they said that wasn't within their power, but how they'd deal with the immediate aftermath to stop Dc feeling suicidal about the violence. The focus was on the schools role in what they considered inevitable.
They actually tried to claim I wasn't allowed to remove them, and demanded their return.
LA belatedly tried to use what had happened to me as a child when I took them to court. Little was centered around my Dc or genuinely safeguarding them.

Some schools aren't fit for purpose, many are already just totally overwhelmed, and many simply incapable of joining up the CPOM dots, or correctly following policies. Relying on schools to be able to protect children is fatal for some children.

An ill thought out one size fits all policy is generally dangerous for some.

When their are concerns about a child, individual focused attention needs to be paid to the child and it's situation. Schools are rarely able to do this, and can act as a barrier when expected to.

A child with suspicions about it, suddenly removed from a school, or kept home from school, or suddenly removed from home ed circles, after questions have been raised, should cause a ramping up of concerns and should be immediately followed up, and we should be prepared to pay for it. We aren't and look for systems that wont cost, to supposedly manage concerns instead.
A swaddled supposedly poorly child at a mandated health appointment should be examined by the Dr anyway, even if it will need to be repeated. A child visited by SW's should have the chocolate on it's face removed and seen before they leave. A skeletaly thin hungry child eating out of the bin at school, should require evidence of a medical condition/investigation, not Mum's word.

Social workers already have power of entry via police accompaniment, if a parent refuses to produce a child or they have sufficient concerns about conditions. The mechanisms exist, professionals have to be together enough to use them. That means investing time, organization, and money, and available police. Instead we get chaos followed by 'look over there, don't look over here.'

Are children "hidden away" by being on holiday from school? Is being at home "hidden away?"

Should we say children who there are concerns about shouldn't be allowed to not go to school during school holidays? It's obviously not workable, but instead of looking at what would work, we ignore what already hasn't worked and say having more of it and not being able to leave it would be enough. It won't be.

I am saying that children there are concerns about, should always be properly followed up, and those specific big red flags such as sudden removal from normal activities following raised concerns, should always cause increasing urgency and attention.

The fact that something isn't allowed, such as not attending a school when enrolled at one, doesn't stop abusers, or automatically protect children, and can lull everyone into a false sense of security that 'someone knows' so 'it can't be that bad', and nothing really bad will happen.

'Protective factors' are entirely subjective and often far from protective.

Totally agree.
And don't forget that some schools cause abuse.
My friend's child was locked in a cupboard. Mine was told he can only 'scribble' and put into a tyre at playground to stop his excessive moving. Both were 4.

Zebrashavestripes · 12/12/2024 07:57

PumpkinSpicePie · 11/12/2024 22:17

School isn't the wonderful supposedly 'protective factor' for abused children any more than the other supposedly protective factors are.

Why do you think the parents took her out of school for her final 4 months then? It looks like you believe they could have just continued to send her to school with all the extreme abuse she suffered after they took her out. Wearing a nappy and with hoods on and broken bones/neck and burns and bite marks. Theyd have had to carry her into school. And no one would have noticed as it makes no difference whether children are hidden away or whether they have professional eyes on them every day right?

Edited

She died during the school holidays

bombastix · 12/12/2024 08:32

Lalgarh · 11/12/2024 23:00

C4 news earlier had Cathy Newman ask if there's an Optimism Bias at play in social services. "They said she was fine so maybe things will work out". And also "the father went on a domestic violence awareness course so they believed he'd be a better father".

Yes. Urfan Sharif went on a DV awareness course.

And this is why I am really really wary when rehabilitation and stuff like restorative justice gets pushed by well meaning people

They make money from it, it ticks a box, it is cheap, and everyone involved can say the issue has been addressed. These courses are a national scandal. You can’t fail them unless you fail to turn up.

An abusers charter. Many of these courses will be in effect helping abusive men hide their conduct from the authorities and telling them the impact of their actions will gratify their sadism. They are a gravy train for someone, and there is no accountability on the content.

I dare say that when someone does some critical analysis they will find (as has been found already) that these courses make perpetrators worse. That is the case with child sexual abuse. I do not see why it is much different for physical abuse.

Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 09:24

bombastix · 12/12/2024 08:32

They make money from it, it ticks a box, it is cheap, and everyone involved can say the issue has been addressed. These courses are a national scandal. You can’t fail them unless you fail to turn up.

An abusers charter. Many of these courses will be in effect helping abusive men hide their conduct from the authorities and telling them the impact of their actions will gratify their sadism. They are a gravy train for someone, and there is no accountability on the content.

I dare say that when someone does some critical analysis they will find (as has been found already) that these courses make perpetrators worse. That is the case with child sexual abuse. I do not see why it is much different for physical abuse.

This morning on R4 Today they had a feature on this. With the judge decision to put her back with the father in 2019, it looks like the judge in effect was barred from putting the child with anyone other than the parent as they seem to have brought the case to family courts. Section 37 of the children's act was mentioned that Parliament specifically took that power away

Just before that they had Thought for the Day from Jane Manfredi in how terrible it is that a child she taught who was disruptive ended up excluded and was now in prison, and how we should ask offenders "how did you get here?" Instead of "what did you do?" And how those who've done even terrible things need second chances..
. which I realise was her trying to be topical like on the announcement yesterday about more prison places but, well, applying that to this case, Urfan Sharif had 2nd chances. Lots of them. Maybe she could let him take up residence with her instead of a custodial sentence and let him retrain as a teacher as an act of godly forgiveness and compassion?

theDudesmummy · 12/12/2024 09:32

It is so depressing that this just continues to happen. I was involved in a professional capacity in a case over 10 years ago where a child was allowed by a judge to return to an abusive parent despite clear signs and repeated warnings by professionals including myself. That child was also beaten to death. The case still upsets a lot me to the present day.

Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 09:41

I'm sorry about that @theDudesmummy .

Was the case deemed to be a bit borderline in terms of the threat the parents posed? Sorry if it's bringing up difficult memories. You don't have to reply

ChristmasPudd1990 · 12/12/2024 09:48

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 07:08

Sara's mother was also involved in abuse both of her and her sibling.

Do you mean birth mother or step mother?

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 09:57

Birth mother.

louddumpernoise · 12/12/2024 09:59

Lighteningstrikes · 11/12/2024 23:55

THIS
They are all culpable.
I cannot believe how these so called professionals are so utterly inept.

Yes it is devastating but SS don't have the resources and note, despite her injuries & concerns made, she placed placed in the 2nd category of risk, there are far worse cases, SS have to priorities who they investigate

As Lord Laming says, who has written 2 child abuse reports, SS do not have the staff to do the job adequately, he said there has been significant cuts to funding over the last decade.... he had nothing but praise for the people who work in social services.

There are 403k children classed as "at risk of harm" and there are 50,000 social workers working with these families, so thats 8 cases per social worker but some will be on leave, holiday, training, not directly involved and case work isn't evenly spread across the country.
Staff retention is a huge problem, not helped by the fact that when they get it wrong, they are hung out to dry but the politicians who have caused the cuts in funding are given a free pass to criticise.

If we want these terrible cases to stop, then SS will need to be properly funded.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 12/12/2024 10:00

The birth mother is described in a report as having learning difficulties.

Grandmasswagbag · 12/12/2024 10:04

Good lord. I can't believe the number of times this poor child has contact with SS .I had no idea they were so heavily involved. Yet another major failing..how many more ? At this point the family courts need blowing wide open and rebuilding the ground up..it's clear they're not fit for purpose.

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 10:11

I think a big problem was also Sara's Muslim covering that she was wearing.

It probably covered some quite severe bruising and the school didn't feel it was their right to have a look underneath.

bombastix · 12/12/2024 10:31
  • Remove the presumption of parental involvement(S.1(2A) of Child Act 1989)1without further delays to address its detrimental effects.
  • Regulate experts in the family courts to ensure they have the appropriate qualifications. This would help to root out so-called parental alienation experts, who style themselves as psychologists (which is currently an unregulated term), and influence court proceedings.
  • Ensure all survivors can access legal aid in the family courts by removing the means test for them.
  • Ensure that all professionals working in the family justice system receive training on domestic abuse including a cultural change programme to introduce and embed reforms to private law children’s proceedings and help to ensure consistent implementation. Training must be provided by domestic abuse and VAWG organisations. We remain seriously concerned about the lack of meaningful engagement with the VAWG sector and therefore the quality of training on domestic abuse in the family justice system.
  • Ensure the special measures introduced in the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 are available in all courts and consistently offered and implemented (e.g. screens in court, remote hearings, separate waiting rooms)

Sign Melanie Brown MBE's Family Courts Petition

The family courts are not safe for survivors of domestic abuse – judges need training now from experts working with abused women and children like Women’s Aid. “Women tell Women’s Aid going to the family courts can be as bad as the abuse itself” “Women...

https://takeaction.womensaid.org.uk/melaniebrownpetition

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 11:06

Peonies007 · 12/12/2024 07:48

It might be, but she was murdered in summer holidays.

Exactly, on a school roll or off a school roll, school wasn't going to be the agency that could actually protect her.

An earlier poster asserted that Victoria Climbie was supposedly being home educated. That's incorrect. I was caught up in the inquiry.

She was taken from her parents ironically with the promise of education and a better life. In reality she was to be a ticket to public funds and housing in France, (immigration uses are unclear) and later to public funds and housing and immigration status in the UK. Another child had been selected, but then wasn't available at the time.

She was enrolled in a school in France. The school was rightly concerned that she was often absent and when present, falling asleep and appearing unwell.
They issued a 'Child at Risk Emergency Notification' in February 99.
Victoria was subsequently removed weeks later, supposedly to go to London for 'treatment.'
Instead she was presented the day after arrival in the UK in April as part of a homeless LP family in Ealing under the name Anna, and supposedly the DD of her great aunt Kaouo, who then moved to Brent. A concerned relative made two reports to Brent SS about the condition of the child. In June there were no instantly available school places and she spent her days from up to 7am to 10pm with a childminder, who was then asked to foster her in July.

In June Kouao had met Manning, the driver of a bus she was on, and Kouao moved to his Tottenham flat in July. Manning didn't want Victoria there, and again no close school places available there either. Kouao refused to transport Victoria, so she went onto a list of those waiting for any local school place.

The childminder refused to privately foster her, but kept her overnight. Her adult daughter took her to hospital in the morning because of lots of small injuries, and she was admitted and police and Brent SS informed.
She was removed from the hospital, and her possessions from the childminder, the following day by Kouao.

A week later she was back in hospital for two weeks supposedly having poured a kettle of boiling water over her own head. Two further referrals where made to SS, one by the hospital SW. Yet case SW and a police officer concluded in August she could be safely discharged to Kouao's care. Her known lack of education wasn't considered an issue as it was school holidays.

She was referred to the Tottenham Child and Family Centre who failed to follow up or visit.
In October Victoria's sofabed was thrown out and she started sleeping in the bath/room.
In November after being told only abuse would get them housed, Kouao took Victoria to Haringey SS claiming Manning had sexually abused Victoria.
Kouao recanted allegations the following day, but was told they needed to stay at a friends.
They actually returned to Manning's flat that night, and no follow up visits to Victoria or offers of school places for either there, or the friends address, were subsequently made. No suggestion or claim that she was being home educated by Kouao was made either.
She was at that time sleeping in her own feces and urine tied up in a black sack and being beaten daily with items including shoes, a coat hanger, wooden spoon, a hammer and a bicycle chain. Victoria’s blood was on several walls of the flat, and Manning’s football boots and trainers.
Her skin deteriorated so much that they stopped using the sack because of possible "untoward questions" being asked by those who saw her, though she remained hog tied and mainly in the bath. By January she was being fed still tied up, off a piece of plastic, by pushing her head towards it.

She was next seen by a SW in a hospital the night before she died. Her poor little body simply gave out. She was initially admitted with a temperature of 27 after being taken to see a priest about her 'behavior.'.
She died of hypothermia caused by malnourishment, restricted movement where she was tied up, and damp cold environment - a bath in an unheated, unlit bathroom.
She had 128 separate injuries caused by sharp and blunt items and no part of her body was unaffected. She had been systematically brutalized and tortured to death.

Victoria was declared dead on 25 February 2000, the same day Haringey SS formally closed her case, with her still not offered a school place nor believed to be educated in any way elsewhere. She also wasn't 'hidden away' she was at home, (though supposedly a different one) and taken to France at least twice during her last four months, staying with Kaouo's son, and was under the care of a SW, and a family center that specialized in overseeing children referred to it.

She and Sarah have several commonalities including presenting as bright smiling confident children when nursing injuries, not being currently enrolled in school and coming from ethnic backgrounds, which certainly played their parts. But IMO the biggest is they where children who one way or another where mainly 'procured' for financial, housing, and settlement gains, by a primary abuser, who later involved secondary abusers, and who knew how to run rings around those supposed to protect 'pass the parcel' children, and the systems in place that should have kicked in to specific big red flags waving, just didn't.

I don't disagree with the petitions aims, but it does nothing for those where females are either primary or secondary abusers. It wouldn't have saved Victoria, or my sibling, or many others. Many parts of jigsaws need looking at.

greenday16B · 12/12/2024 11:10

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 10:11

I think a big problem was also Sara's Muslim covering that she was wearing.

It probably covered some quite severe bruising and the school didn't feel it was their right to have a look underneath.

She didn't die because her family claimed to be Muslim.

bombastix · 12/12/2024 11:16

I don’t disagree on the focus of women being secondary abusers. These cases all seem to have an element of two adults engaging in the abuse. I focus on the family court because it was that decision that meant Sara was consciously placed into the hands of an abusive man. That seems to have been key; had it not occurred she might be alive.

Peonies007 · 12/12/2024 11:17

www.bbc.com/news/articles/c6241k940n2o.amp

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 11:22

greenday16B · 12/12/2024 11:10

She didn't die because her family claimed to be Muslim.

Correct. All the main religions and cultures tat cover their hair (including mine) don't have issues with girls and women uncovering hair to other females, and a school would have to be in the back end of nowhere to not know this.
The school stated she was actively using her scarf to avoid her bruises being more comprehensively seen.

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 12:16

greenday16B · 12/12/2024 11:10

She didn't die because her family claimed to be Muslim.

I never said that.

But in her case, the tradition clothing (is it called a Niqab?) was used to cover up bruising.

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 12:41

Yes it was, including by Sara herself. But any school that doesn't know enough about what would be reasonable or not for adult women to be asking a Muslim girl regarding such situations has no cultural awareness or right to be in the business of claiming they are able to in any way safeguard children in a multi cultural country.
The school noted she was using her Niquab to minimize them seeing her bruising, it's enough. No different from any girl using her skirt to cover bruising spotted and asked about on her thighs. We don't put it down to modesty or decide asking about it or reporting it might make female teachers seem like perverts. Children hiding bruises and giving different explanations are big red flags.

Elleherd · 12/12/2024 13:01

bombastix · 12/12/2024 11:16

I don’t disagree on the focus of women being secondary abusers. These cases all seem to have an element of two adults engaging in the abuse. I focus on the family court because it was that decision that meant Sara was consciously placed into the hands of an abusive man. That seems to have been key; had it not occurred she might be alive.

I don't disagree and do understand, and had that decision not have been made Sara might well have lived, but in Victoria's case, my siblings and I, and many others, the primary murderous abuser was female and imaginative, sometimes our mothers, and there was a male who became involved later.

Several abused children have died at their mothers hands, or through them, so while as I said I don't disagree with the petitions aims, we need to be careful of believing that we just need to do one thing from any one angle and it will change the culture that can turn abused children into a placement problem to be solved, or a known abused child have their abuse just monitored rather than addressed.

MonaLisaDoesntSmile · 12/12/2024 13:26

hotpotlover · 12/12/2024 12:16

I never said that.

But in her case, the tradition clothing (is it called a Niqab?) was used to cover up bruising.

But many were visible despite the covering.

Lalgarh · 12/12/2024 13:33

God this is confusing.

Bainash Batool was also known as Aysha Khan and appeared to have been married to one convicted drug smuggler who she claimed had fathered her twins (not sure if she ever was pregnant) but also tried the same trick on another drug smuggler.

And Sara's. Father also had another marriage at the same time as he was with Sara's birth mother.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/11/sara-sharif-fathers-family-had-protested-his-innocence

Sara Sharif murder: who are the 10-year-old girl’s killers?

Sara’s father and her stepmother were convicted of murder after a dramatic courtroom confession

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/11/sara-sharif-fathers-family-had-protested-his-innocence

bombastix · 12/12/2024 13:41

Look at this. This judge should be named. They appear incompetent

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/12/sara-sharifs-father-given-custody-despite-years-of-reported-abuse-of-mother-and-siblings