To think most men are selfish?

[henrts]

Even when they think they’re not, they are still massively selfish compared with a woman. Not all men, obviously, but I think it’s true of most. I also think it shows mostly when they have kids… somehow they still manage to put themselves first.

OP you are right

I have a father who was very generous and kind
Married someone who I thought was like that but he changed after kids, dramatically
it was a shock to realise that he - and men - are selfish after the amazing example my father set

Girls are socialised differently to boys. There are absolutely different expectations on mothers and fathers (which starts with inequalities in parental leave.

And it does not follow that a useless male partner will have an equally useless female partner.

I've noticed in various walks of life that men tend to only do things that they are praised for, paid for, or benefit themselves.

Women are much more likely to do thankless tasks that benefit others.

Yes they are. The only man I trust is my dad.

"the inequalities in expectations of mothers compared to fathers." Again, I find that a rather tired and cliched assertion, if I'm honest.
"men being “babysitters” to their children "...an exclusive to Mumsnet view in my experience.

You need to look beyond Mumsnet then because it is talked about on different social media platforms (Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, etc).

Taught? Who by? When? Where? Imho, we haven't lived in the 50s for decades and decades...

That may be your experience, but it was an issue when I was a child and other women I I’ve talked to (Millenial) and still a bit now even though there is more and more pushback.

Perhaps there are plenty of rubbish fellas like that but one would expect the women who are with them to be equally as rubbish

No you wouldn’t. Again, it is openly talked about on different social media platforms how things change after babies are born, and the differences for mothers and fathers and even during pregnancy.

Absolutely true unfortunately

Yeah...again, just to pick up on my previous point - who's doing this "socialising'? When? Show me examples, just for my learning.

And, I'd say Of course there are different expectations - mothers and fathers are very different things.

Sorry, but the last sentence doesn't work for me as part of a debate - especially as a response to my initial point.

I enjoy sharing perspectives and opinions though. I'm generally very left wing, but I don't see progressivism or liberalism as very important in that stance.

Look, I enjoy the debate and take some of your points...however...

The majority of men and women I know, yes they are buffeted by society norms and experiences, but they take responsibility for their own views and development and behaviours.

Of course mothers and fathers have "differences" as you say; that's because they are different.

We could vere off into a JK Rowling debate here, but I'll refrain.

It's all fun and fabulous in work when we're in our 20s, but the fun fades in our 30s and 40s when the competition hots up, the stakes are higher, the responsibilities weigh heavier and there are young leaners snapping at your heels; men have these pressures when women are often out of the labour market having different experiences to deal with.

I'll reiterate; my stance is generally very left wing politically, but I don't particularly emphasise progressivism as being a good thing for its own sake and mattering above all else (as I sometimes perceive others' over emphasis of it).

I'd never be unkind but I'm generally gender critical; in my eyes, that means that I understand that of course the sexes are equal. Equal, but different.

Circling back to the whole point of this thread, this means that women, imho, are often too selfless (sometimes performatively so), while men freewheel more - whilst being acutely aware of their core responsibilities.

*Not all men, not all women.

My husbands were.
My sons aren't.
May be a correlation there?

Socialising (or socialisation?) happens through experience doesn't it? Learning by osmosis, seeing how different people behave around you. If girls see most women doing all the housework, the lovely gestures, looking after everyone, sorting out cards and presents for all occasions, organising everything, then they "are taught" that those are part of their role as women.

It's hard to change those deeply ingrained feelings once you're an adult and have intellectualised the subject, so the cycle continues.

I don't know if it's most men, but a lot of them are selfish. Not sure how relevant this comment is to this thread really, but I'm sitting in a carpark calming myself down before I drive home as I just overheard a man comment on my ugliness to his wife / girlfriend. She immediately said "sh, that's rude" to him. But it's left me wanting to hide away and never come out again. I suppose selfish might be the wrong word for this situation, but why do men feel entitled to tell me I'm unattractive looking? I know it already, you know, and I don't need their opinions. It's always men / boys who tell me when I'm just minding my own business, looking around shops etc.

ok...fair enough...agreed, absolutely on being influenced by experience.

So how are we going to change the culture of all the women feeling obliged to do all the shit things they don't fancy and all the men feeling obliged to do the shit things they don't fancy?

Shit things have to be done...the gender skew of who's doing the shit things doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of everyone doing the shit things...

It's up to individuals to change things up perhaps...to show the way to the next generation...

There are strong, independent, liberal, progressive married women I know who do more mummy stuff than the strong, liberal, progressive men they're married to who do daddy stuff...largely because it suits them and those individuals are more suited to the particular roles that they adopt.

For those years when the kids are small, women put up with shit at home, men put up with shit at work. Women have coffee and cake at Costa, men have a pint after work after a conference in Harrogate.

Different shit, same shit...

Oh absolutely most men so much so that when I meet selfish women, they kind of stand out as an anomaly because it’s more rare.

Disregarding someone’s feelings (even a strangers) is massively selfish and have you noticed that it’s the two demographics that are known to be most selfish (men/teens) that do this the most.

Please take comfort knowing that most men are entitled hypocrites with no self awareness or humane evolvement in their psyche. Imagine where we’d be if women behaved like this as a default.

You are a million times better than these tools.

1. Socialising from parents, the home, broader societal attitudes and messaging.

2. Mothers and fathers are only “two different things” in very limited biological circumstances. There is no rationale for placing different expectations on mothers and fathers (and praising fathers for things seen as bare minimum for mothers) but at least you have walked back your initial statement that mothers and fathers are not held to different standards. We got there eventually!

3. I don’t see why you being left-wing is relevant to the price of Brie.

A lot of men think the primary reason for women existing is to make their boners happen. It’s why their go to insult for a woman is to say she is unattractive / unf*ckable.

They also seem to think their criteria for assessing women is the same criteria women use for assessing ourselves - so they are free with offering unsocilited opinions on our appearance.

I have not had men comment on finding me ugly (at least not in earshot) but more than one has felt the need to take me I should not wear heels as it makes me “too tall”. I often wonder “too tall for what and why do you feel the need to tell me.”

And then I remember I don’t care about men’s opinions.

Sorry that man was such an arse to you and I hope his partner leaves him as he will be equally shitty to her down the line.

Hugs

No. It’s not the same shit. Women putting up with shit at home - handling the lions share of cooking, cleaning, childcare and often working out of the home as well - is really not comparable to a bloke who doesn’t really like his job (few people do) and goes for a pint after work or a conference. I mean I don’t see how you can compare the two. The woman is at a material disadvantage.

If she isn’t working out of the home she is losing out on an income, career progression and will have a reduced pension whilst her husband continues to work and build up all those assets.

If she is employed she is doing two jobs. She will likely be underpaid for one and not paid at all for the other.

Of course the “gender skew of who is doing the shit things” matters. Women do most of it and it matters because it’s the reason we have an unequal society.

My husband is not selfish,
he's only too lazy. super lazy.

Sadly, yes I do.

Even the really lovely ones (my dad and dh to name two) are absolutely more selfish than their wives and other female family members.

Mind you, my upbringing was 100% "you don't matter at all, it's all about others" and my mother still sees self confidence of any description in women as a character deficiency.

Looking back over my life and relationships/friendships, I definitely feel that being as unselfish as possible has impacted my life very badly in many ways. I still think it's an excellent value to have but unless everyone around you is the same, you absolutely have to have boundaries and self esteem or you just get trodden on repeatedly.

Yup. And they need recognition for things they do that are not entirely for themselves. I find men say and do nice things for soemthing return (you doing soemthing, possible sex, whatever).