To expect men to bring condoms

[Dockofthebaobun]

Since my divorce I’ve occasionally had hook-ups with men I’ve got chatting to online. The first time, the guy didn’t have condoms on him so we used mine. I thought it was odd for someone to meet for a shag and not bring condoms, and I wondered if he had genuinely forgotten or was just trying to chance it and see if I would without (er, not on your life mate, sorry).
Since then I have had three more hookups, the latest being last night. And now three out of four have ‘forgotten’ condoms.

What is it with these guys? They are all in their late 30s / 40s, all professional well-spoken men, with jobs and responsibilities and things. Why would they be so thoughtless and/or reckless with their sexual health?

Incidentally the best date by far was the one guy who did bring his own. I don’t think that’s necessarily a coincidence!

AIBU to expect them to bring their own? I always bring some, but God why should it be my responsibility?

It's your responsibility because you're the one that wants to use condoms. That's really all there is to it. My BIL is a prolific shagger, says pulling women is just too easy, so the challenge is to get them to go bareback.

I am not sure why you want to shag someone who is unconcerned with their own sexual health. If they didn't bring a condom to you, then they didn't bring it to their last partner either. They don't look after their sexual health and could have anything. Condoms break occasionally - I don't think this type of risk is a great idea tbh.

Your BIL is, bluntly, an irresponsible prick.

In my experience, men are ALWAYS expecting to have sex on the first date!

What do you do if they turn up and smell? Or have bad teeth? Genuine question here!

I would say if they don't bring a condom they don't get any sex. I'd be very wary of a man who tried to avoid wearing one and he wouldn't be going into my lady garden.

This isn't that far from the world of dogging, swinging, amateur porn etc

IME, swinging is the one situation where men do have condoms and use them - it is expected and it's not argued about. (Haven't been dogging or done amateur porn, so don't know about those.)

Casual sex is a situation where everyone, male or female, should take responsibility for their own health, so everyone, male and female, should be turning up with condoms for their own protection.

They don't bring them because they'd prefer not to wear them.

I agree with a pp, it's more common with older men than younger ones.

I don't think you can really be demanding about the moral views of a ONS, they could be psychopaths who torture kittens for all you know and it's not really your business, but it's reasonable not to go ahead if you think they are a health risk.

Look, it's clear you're a bit upset by the conversation and how it's gone.

OP doesn't seem at all upset to me.

I think you'd like her to be, so you've just decided she is.

This was to @MrsLBrown

You misread what I wrote.

I said explicitly, and at least twice, that it’s NOT your fault if it goes wrong. I was extremely clear about that. “Not your fault” is what I wrote.

If a woman walks naked through the park at night it’s not her fault if she gets raped. There is no one at fault other than the man who chose to attack her.

However, we can all choose what level of risk we’re prepared to expose ourselves to. And that is going to be different for each of us. Walking through a dark park at night naked would be risky because there are dangerous men out there. It increases your risk level but you’re still not at fault if you get attacked. Risk and blame are often spoken about together but they are different.

Acknowledging that there’s a risk is NOT the same as laying blame. I often jaywalk but I don’t expect a driver to mow me down. It’s riskier than waiting at the pedestrian crossing but I still expect road users to drive properly. I don’t walk out in front of a car and I look carefully. If a car suddenly shoots out of a drive or side road, or moves off from a parked position without looking, and hits me - it’s still their fault. I was just in a riskier position because I was jaywalking - but it’s still their fault.

Acknowledging there’s a risk isn’t the same as accepting blame.

There is a risk in meeting strange men, whether you want to admit that or not. As I said before, you take steps to reduce the risk but can’t eliminate it completely. It’s your choice what level of risk to accept.

The point was that you don’t know these men, you don’t plan on seeing them again, so it’s probably unrealistic to think they’re going to be thoughtful. They won’t care if you don’t have condoms - many men would be happy to go bareback.

The point about only 4 hookups not being prolific related to the level of risk you’re accepting. My point was, it’s not very frequent so not a huge amount.

I couldn’t care less how many men you fuck.

You are quite prickly and your absolute insistence that it’s all perfectly safe is naive. But as I said before, we all choose how much risk we want to accept and you’ve been very open about the fact that the thrill is part of the appeal for you.

Who brings what should be discussed prior. Who’s bringing a box of condoms (😂 at the people saying he should bring his own singular condom), lube, wipes, water (always need plenty of that). If they don’t bring what is asked it shows a complete lack of respect.

You are quite prickly and your absolute insistence that it’s all perfectly safe is naive. But as I said before, we all choose how much risk we want to accept and you’ve been very open about the fact that the thrill is part of the appeal for you

I don’t think op has said anywhere, much less absolutely insisted that it’s perfectly safe. She’s acknowledged repeatedly that it’s potentially risky but that she weighs up the risks and benefits and chooses what level of risk she is ok with. As you’ve acknowledged, we all do that in various ways, all the time. This is just one more scenario in which the op does it.

Women entering relationships with, living with and marrying men are putting themselves at risk given what we know about who the perpetrators of rape, sexual assault and murder are most likely to be, yet you don’t get the same level of concern expressed when women say they’re going to get married. Why is that?

@Dockofthebaobun I would assume that, like most men, they are mostly a bit lazy and probably accustomed to a woman doing most of the planning when it comes to life admin! I also expect that they would chose sex without a condom over abstinence if you had arrived equally unprepared!

My worry with these guys would be that they are higher risk (in terms of STIs) if they are the kind of man who has regular hook ups multiple partners and doesn't carry (and insist on) condoms! I would perhaps make it clear in the screening chat that you insist on condoms, to reduce the chance of meeting up with someone who doesn't want to or who might try to remove one during sex.

In terms of safety, I don't think this is especially risky. Women are more likely to be assaulted or killed by a man they already know who's angry/ jealous/ controlling. Going on a handful of dates before having sex doesn't really give you any more insight into a person's character than a brief chat and you could argue that a 'date' is more likely to present a false impression of themselves (to try and get sex) than a man who already knows sex is on the cards.

Yes this has absolutely been my experience!
Men in there late30/40s who assume that condoms aren’t needed because “aren’t you on the pill?”. It’s actually shocking that contraception has become a “woman’s job” in the modern dating.
Anyway I met my boyfriend (late 40s) a few months ago, it’s by far one of the healthiest relationships I have ever been in and from day one he has not only worn a condom without making a fuss and he has always provided them too - we agreed that he gets to choose and buy the condoms because he’s the one wearing it. I love that about him and that we take joint responsibility but it should be the norm not the exception, I shouldn’t have to feel lucky.

Your BIL sounds like an absolute idiot. I have no idea why you would even entertain listening to his bragging. I think I would want to be sick if my own brother spoke about women like this.

In terms of safety, I don't think this is especially risky. Women are more likely to be assaulted or killed by a man they already know who's angry/ jealous/ controlling. Going on a handful of dates before having sex doesn't really give you any more insight into a person's character than a brief chat and you could argue that a 'date' is more likely to present a false impression of themselves (to try and get sex) than a man who already knows sex is on the cards.

There is a massive difference between going on a few dates and then having sex, or having sex as a transactional event in a hotel with a stranger.

A date isn't more likely to give a false impression to get sex as there are plenty of women like @Dockofthebaobun who are happy just to have sex! They don't need bother to 'pretend' to want more.

The former is that when you date you have some expectation of it developing into a relationship or even FWB, rather than a ONS. And you could have met the person's friends, colleagues, family etc. I'm not saying this is always the case, or the man isn't a nutter, but the odds of coming to harm are less.

And- being frank- the men OP has met so far don't care about her or want a relationship. They are getting sex, with no strings, they aren't paying for it, so from their point of view- why not go for it?

And the old chestnut that keeps cropping up about women being killed by men they know- yes, that's true. But this isn't just about murder or serious assault. They are unlikely. More being asked to do sexual things you don't want to do, so they become nasty but not so violent that there is evidence.

The fact is that OP has only had 4 encounters. The odds of anything nasty happening are low. But it's always a risk and the more she does it, the higher the risk. She's already found out the men don't care about her because of the no-condoms. For them it's probably no different to using a prostitute but without paying, or the stigma, (and the hope they can go condom-free.)

And before anyone wades in, I'm not saying the OP is 'like a prostitute'. Women are entitled to have sex with no strings as much as they want to. But some men have different views.

there’s a degree of trust involved, as in we’ll have been in contact for a while and sussed each other out a bit

And yet, you do not appear to be discussing up front the use of condoms, which are surely the most basic way to protect yourself

Why is this not part of the 'sussing out' process?

Maybe I'm showing my vanilla lifestyle here but I would definitely add it to the pre check process and then yes, agree who will provide them and no condom no PIV sex.

Why does he have to be a bastard just because he likes sex?

OP likes sex - are we to assume she is therefore a horrible person with no consideration for others?

It's possible to enjoy consensual recreational sex and still have an ethical code - don't see why you think it wouldn't be? Do morals spring from a low libido?

OP, I think both should be bringing condoms, and I agree it's surprising how many men are happy to have unprotected sex without. I do think some of them possibly struggle with staying hard/climaxing with a condom on, and that that could be why they try to avoid it..... A lot of men seem to struggle to climax from PIV alone anyway (especially if they are used to wanking a lot), so add a layer of latex into the mix.....You get the picture.

Because even if they were totally self centred, rationally speaking they surely want to avoid STDs, so all things being equal they would also want to wear them.....

I discussed this with my gay friend, and his attitude was basically everything can be cured these days (it can't), so why bother?

I think since PreP has come on the market, many people have just assumed they can do things without consequence, and when it comes to straight sex, we'll, if she doesn't want a child, she'll abort it (not my problem).

Scary/sad really.

To be fair, I'd probably be less worried about HIV these days, and more worried about antibiotic-resistant gonorrhoea or hep C or something.

"I thought it was odd for someone to meet for a shag and not bring condoms"

If using condoms is important to you, make sure you have some.

I have to say OP you've handled this thread so well. It's disgusting to see that rape culture and internalised misogyny is alive and well on MN, and completely unaware of itself.
Women are entitled to enjoy sex, and to have that sex however and with whoever you want. Jesus wept some of these comments feel like they come from a time capsule!

She does. I do. But the point is men don't care about the risk of STIs or pregnancy, but if you're meeting for a hookup, the risks of STIs are higher,and there's no guarantee a woman is on the pill/injections/implants/coil, either. I never have been after my 20s, if not in a long term relationship. I want to protect myself- but so should men want to protect themselves too, and most don't, as they don't bring up the question of condoms unless the woman insists.

No one is being a misogynist by suggesting women think carefully about the risks they take. Women have more to lose by men in these casual hook ups. Not one poster has said women shouldn't have sex when they like or ONS. But it's simply unrealistic not to acknowledge that men don't pose a risk and turning this into a 'blame culture' is not what posters have done. OP can put herself out there and take the risk - she's accepted that. My point all along has been that she may be minimising the risk as it's only based on 4 men. And as 3 of them haven't even bothered to bring a condom, that says something about them - doesn't it? It doesn't mean they are murderers but it does show how little regard they have for her, as an object to fulfil their needs. So the misogyny is all theirs.

She's not saying she approves of it. Not listening to it or being sick wouldn't make a jot of difference to whether some men feel and act this way. You can stick your fingers in your ears all you like, but it doesn't mean the world is nicer place.

This isn’t ok. The comments are not mysogynistic or focusing on rape culture. If you’re struggling , take a step back from the thread

the fact of the matter is the op is electing to have sex with strangers, she has accepted the risk in doing so, that a man may appear nice and get in the room and hurt her, badly, and that’s her call, the type of men she’s meeting don’t care about her, they even turn up without condoms.

Which says a lot about their views on this, she is not meeting decent men who care. As such, she should always bring her own condoms, and importantly only accept them using hers, due to the low life type of men she’s electing to meet.

no one is saying women can’t enjoy sex. Or have a one night stand. But it would be remiss of any poster to be giving it you go girl. Get yours, when they see a woman engaging in very risky behaviour. With men who she has spoken to briefly and even meets for the first time in a car park to go to a room with them.

does this mean that it’s the only type of risky behaviour a woman can engage in, no, it isn’t a race to the bottom. It isn’t saying women can’t enjoy sex. It is pointing out the very signficant risks this woman is taking, and understanding she’s accepting them. The fact she’s complaining they don’t bring condoms signals she’s not fully grasping just how risky this is. If she did, she’d both want to bring and use her own, and secondly she’d grasp what kind of men these are when they turn up to have sex with a stranger without their own condoms.