To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

[notarisingfan]

I’m getting to the point where I need to sleep train my 15 month old. I’m getting hardly any sleep and it’s getting me down.

The problem is gentle methods just wind her up. If she knows I’m there she just keeps screaming and trying to get to me. Her brother was the same and gentle methods didn’t work for him either.

AIBU to think cry it out is long term probably kinder … it worked after one night with ds.

@notarisingfan I've been there with intense sleep deprivation. My son is almost 5 and, like a previous poster, has some additional needs.

Sleep has always been awful. And I do mean awful. People who haven't been there just can't physically understand how it feels. So I really do feel for you and I don't blame you for considering the extreme options.

Just to say, we tried Ferber with ds at 11 months old after all gentle methods had been rendered useless. He hated co sleeping too. We followed the book carefully, had a solid plan etc. It didn't work. He wasn't "self settling" at all, he was just screaming himself to exhaustion and we felt awful.

I physically couldn't do full cry it out, I know in my heart it wouldn't have been right for Ds. He's a very anxious, sensitive child and has genuine struggles with relaxing enough to sleep because of how he is wired.

What I will say is, once I let go of "fixing" things and relaxed, that in itself helped. We started Fixing other things like how to make early starts easier, how to make the house run easier for days we were exhausted. From 8-18 months I sat in a travel cot with him on my lap them moved him off and climbed out 🤣 At 18 months we took the sides off his cot bed and I'd lay with him until he went to sleep, each time he wakes too. He now sleeps in a small double, I read or we listen to an audio book until he's asleep and he very often sleeps through. If he needs me in the night we've got plenty of space and he often just goes straight back off tbh. Things like a banana before bed, child safe magnesium/lavender foot cream, routine etc really helps. Fresh air after tea if possible.

Generally I'd say things improved massively at 3 (I know, not consolation to you now) then again 4. He's almost 5 now and started school in September, I hesitate to say it out loud, but his sleep can now often be comparable to my friends children, sometimes better.

I'm not saying do or don't, I'm not saying "just wait 4 years" I'm just saying I understand how you feel and I hope things improve for you soon, one way or another.

Kids need to learn to regulate themselves and to manage some distress. It wont do any harm.

So many interesting replies. I see some are still fixated on her co sleeping or in a cot in my room; this makes no difference at all.

Would I leave an adult in a room crying? Probably, yes, if they were always doing it and I needed to get on at work and I was confident nothing was really wrong.

YANBU. It really is down to each family though to figure out what works best for them. Extinction often works faster so less crying overall! But some parents prefer to go slowly which is also fine. Extinction, graded response (Ferber) both are equally as effective and safe so it's just personal preference.

Thanks mate.

You seem set on doing it (again) anyway so why bother writing a whole thread about it in the hope of getting people to justify your actions?

a lot of people won’t, many people (and children!) feel CIO is cruel and not at all ‘kind’ in any way…

join a fb group such as the beyond sleep training project…you might find some ideas, or some rational thinking

Babies NEED sleep. Sleep is the answer to everything. A couple of nights of crying works a treat and massively reduce the amount of upset a baby/toddler goes through. They learn that they can self settle. They are happier and less stressed.

I think that is a very selective sort of reading of the thread @Marian220

I did say at the start that I knew the time to sleep train was here, but what I was discussing was the actual method. It’s generally felt that some methods of sleep training are kinder or more gentle than CIO but for amenable that isn’t true and it’s been so interesting how many have come on and have said the same.

It depends what you do and how, if you know your child is sleep deprived and miserable and is getting a miserable sleep deprived parent then going back intermittently to say goodnight in a calm loving way is not unkind. It’s not as simple as all crying is bad. As a parent you have to trust your judgement, way up the pro’s and cons and do your best. There is not a simple formula for a good life with a happy child.

The people that say it is cruel are often those that also are very very tired….

Crying rather than lack of sleep (for all involved) seems like the better option.

CIO is a touchy subject for obvious reasons. I think it was quite obvious as well what kind of responses you would get, writing on AIBU.

All I see is a mum desperate for a good nights sleep. I know a good friend of mine had spent 20 months without a single full night sleep and in the end considered CIO because she was so depressed and sleep deprived.

You are not a bad parent. But I would definitely advise speaking to a professional about better sleeping habits. I am not an expert, but I always thought the older they were the harder it was to start sleep training? It doesn’t sound like your daughter responds well to gentle methods, so I am guessing you might struggle with CIO as well.

You may be able to google or do some research for people local to you who can look at your daughters schedule and help x

• after getting professional help my friends child slept much better, stopped the habit waking for milk or water and did 4-5 hours continuous sleep. She only wakes once a night now. No CIO method

Because people have jobs, other children, responsibilities?

We can't all sit around holding our babies 24/7. If you can, that's a real luxury.

And from a mum of 3, I guarantee you it's not a short phase; children who aren't taught how to sleep independently often have sleeping issues well into primary school age.

Crying is a very normal phenomenon. It is nothing to be scared of. Babies cry for loads of reasons, as do toddlers, children and adults. It doesn't mean they're going to be permanently damaged by crying a little.

Although I do find it ironic that it's the babies who aren't encouraged to sleep independently that often end up spending way more time crying in the long run than kids who get used to falling asleep quickly.

I think the responses have been just fine to be honest.

I defy anyone to have co slept with my eldest.

He snored like a 20 stone trucker until his adenoids were removed at five and peed through every form night time nappy, extra pants and sometimes the waterproof sheet (he slept so deeply he didn't wake up even when he'd done it).

I love him dearly but I'd have looked like the walking dead with him in the same room let alone in our bed as he is a wriggler too.

My daughter is not as bad but instead likes to press her legs into you and push off, toe nails first.

Thankfully i never introduced co sleeping as I think I'd have gone mad.

What is it about the smallest people in our lives being able to take up the most room when in a bed? It literally defies physics 😂

I had the opposite experience with DS although obviously everyone is different.
I co-slept for years and didn’t even try to leave his room before he fell asleep until he was 4. I used to put him down and lie on his bedroom floor until he fell asleep. Luckily, it was usually quite quick but some evenings it could take a looooong time and you feel like your evening is slipping away.

Anyway, funny story, the first time I tried it - I just put him in bed, said goodnight and went downstairs and didn’t hear a peep out of him and still don’t now. I find this highly amusing like for all that time I was lying on his bedroom floor waiting for him to go to sleep was he thinking “I dunno why you’re still here but ok, you do you” 😂😂

I couldn’t do cry it out. But YANBU for getting to your wits end and getting to the point where you’re considering it. That said, sleep training doesn’t have to mean cry it out.

We had an awful time with DS (now 2) which started around the same age as your DD, where he’d scream and scream at bedtime and when he woke in the night because he just wanted to be with us in our room/our bed and we’d try and resist but we’d end up giving in so we could get some sleep, but that meant neither DH or I could sleep anyway with his kicking and wriggling and literally sitting on or fully lying on top me and head butting me occasionally. And in turn it reinforced to DS that if he kicked off enough he got what he wanted. It was a vicious circle.

Have you called your HV? I called ours in tears at my wits end and she gave some fantastic advice and a plan to follow. I remember saying to her I won’t do cry it out, and she said I didn’t have to. And she called every couple of weeks to see how it was going.

I will say it got worse before it got better as DS couldn’t understand why we weren’t giving in! But then it got to the point where our bedtime routine was done so quickly and he’d go straight to sleep, and if he woke in the night he’d either put himself back to sleep or we’d only need to go in for a few minutes. Some of the things which worked for us were:

• bedtime routine was exactly the same no matter which one of us did it. To the letter.
• once he was laid down to sleep and whole routine, story, milk etc was done, I would sit and hold his hand for a few minutes (but not to sleep) and then leave. If he started to cry, I’d wait a minute (difference between crying and whinging) and then go back in and comfort him - but he wasn’t to get out of bed. The leave again. If he didn’t stop crying I’d sit there and hold his hand but not engage with him. I wanted him to know that mummy would always come if he cried but that didn’t mean he was getting his own way.
• And repeat this process. It would take hours sometimes and be long past even my bedtime! we did this when he woke in the night as well. I spent many a night falling asleep on his bedroom floor and holding his hand through cot bars.
• eventually he got better at recognising once his bed routine ended it was time to lie down and sleep. So I could just get up and leave the room after and he’d go off to sleep himself.

Honestly it took about 6-8 weeks for it to work. And it was brutal and I felt like caving so many times. But once we started to see the benefits it was such a relief. For us, we knew the root cause was DS wanting to be in our bed and with us, so we stopped even letting him in our bedroom at any time of day so he didn’t even get a hint of that as an option.

You're allowed to take into account what's kind to you as well, you know.

Yes, do whatever it takes to get some sleep.

I was shown a method where you let the baby cry for ten minutes, then you go back in and to settle then you face the baby away from you, put it on its side and pat it with both hands, like you're playing the Bongo drums, quite strongly for 10 minutes. This is to calm the baby, not send them to sleep. At first it doesn't really calm them (if they're anything like my baby was) and they just cry for the whole 10 minutes you're patting them.

But after 10 minutes, you leave and then wait another 10 minutes. This is the heartbreaking part as they are just crying there for 10 minutes while you wait. Then you go back in and pat again for 10 minutes.

You repeat this over and over again, all night if necessary, until the baby sleeps.

We did this at 6 months and night 1 that baby did not sleep almost at all. But night 2 they slept like a log (probably because they were exhausted from night 1) then night 3 and 4 they were a lot better than night 1 but still needed a lot of patting. They needed patting like this less and less over the next few weeks but it greatly improved their sleep and witching a few months they were sleeping through the night with only one or two wake ups a week. It stayed at a beverage of perhaps one wake up per week from about age 12-18 months and then from around 18 months they slept without any trouble every night.

So this wasn't an instant solution but compared to waking up every hour it was amazing and changed our lives.

It should say average not beverage!

When a dog is kicked we know it causes pain that is why it is widely accepted that it is cruel. The same does not exist for using cry it out. The two most common arguments are it's cruel and the child gets the message that 'they are alone, no one is coming.' With zero explanation or evidence to support.

A child crying does not equate to cruelty. My child cried far harder in the car seat than she ever cried during sleep training. Should I have just let her roam free in the car as she expressed her discomfort? She roared when we changed her nappy for a solid month, should we have just let sit in a soiled nappy as we didn't want her to cry? Or was crying acceptable in these situations as it was important she becomes comfortable in the car seat and when changing a nappy? What make one cry cruel and another cry ok?

The other argument is people attaching their own meaning to the child crying. There is no way anyone can say a baby interprets it as 'no one comes when you cry.' In fact the evidence suggests otherwise as sleep trained babies do not stop crying. They still continue to cry to express needs. They will still cry at night when they need something, like a nappy change or water. So they clearly have not interpreted is as no one comes when they cry.

But I would be very open to reading any actual evidence that you based your opinion on?

YANBU.

Sleep is important. Depending on the child, CIO can involve less crying so does seem kinder than weeks of crying just to be able to say it was ‘gentle’ sleep training.

Ultimately, what is ‘gentle’ depends on the child. It’s all about finding something that works best.

Did you sit in silence and totally blank your child when they cried during nappy changes or in the car? Or did you talk to them and let them know you were there even if they were unhappy? Because that is a huge difference. If you didn't react to their distress at all then that is cold and inhuman. And I suspect you'll feel annoyed I said that because in your head it's obvious you responded. As it should have been when they cried at night time.