To think cry it out is kinder than gentler methods

[notarisingfan]

I’m getting to the point where I need to sleep train my 15 month old. I’m getting hardly any sleep and it’s getting me down.

The problem is gentle methods just wind her up. If she knows I’m there she just keeps screaming and trying to get to me. Her brother was the same and gentle methods didn’t work for him either.

AIBU to think cry it out is long term probably kinder … it worked after one night with ds.

• Resettle child. Say goodnight and leave. Don't do a lot. Focus is it's nighttime and not a lot of service offered. Mine have never been left to cry.*

I think what comments like this don't understand is that some babies cannot be resettled without picking them up, which just resets the cycle. Like the OP, I had two babies that would just drive themselves into a frenzy if I was there and didn't pick them up. And if I did, they'd be screaming as soon as they touched the cot when I put them back down again, so resettling actually achieved nothing because every time I went in I actually upset them more.

Some babies are Sarah Ockwell-Smith babies and some babies aren't 🤷🏻‍♀️

Like OP I found Lucy Wolfe helpful (especially with wake windows and generally making me feel more confident with my sleep approach), but actually used something closer to CIO in the end. We two hard nights and then brilliant sleepers. Didn't affect our bond blah blah blah.

People can say I'm cruel as they like but they didn't have my babies. I think part of being a parent is teaching your child to sleep.

And of course I tried gentle methods first! Consistently ...

I had twins and had a hard time trying to settle one and then the other. I’d try to get one fully settled and the other would start crying before I managed it, so I’d try to settle the other and the first would start crying harder. It felt like and endless cycle. Eventually I decided to try and settle one of them properly and just leave the other until the first was fully asleep, then I settled the second. It was a revelation when the second one, who I wasn’t trying to comfort in any way fell asleep without me before the first.

I realised that, for my babies, the attention - me responding to their crying - kept them awake when they really needed to sleep. They were pretty young at that stage so they were in the room with me. But I didn’t try to settle them if they cried from tiredness, I just let them get to sleep themselves. They got a lot more sleep that way and cried a lot less than when I’d tried responding to them.

All of that is to say that YANBU. I agree that some forms of sleep training can be frustrating for some babies. Attention, of even the mildest form, doesn’t necessarily help, it can interrupt the process of getting back to sleep.

Sorry I wrote the above not having seen all the later replies ...

I am also another one that co-sleeping didn't work for. Partly because I can't sleep but also one of my babies absolutely hated it.

As PP said, the babies have all read different books. You as the parent have to kind of feel what approach is best for yours.

My DS was a terrible sleeper. He sleeps through fairly consistently now he’s 3. We didn’t do anything to sleep train, there were a few gradual transitions like night weaning, him falling asleep in his cot rather than on a person and into a bed but overall it did happen on its own.

The difference was that me and DH shared the night wake ups so it wasn’t all on me.

My second naturally sleeps better.

If you’ve decided you want to sleep train that’s completely fine especially as it made such a difference with you’re first but unless there is neurodivergence like the PP mentioned sleep will get better on its own over time. By over time I mean years/months not a few weeks.

This was completely true for my DC. “Gentle” methods felt like they just confused her, ie, why was I in the room but not picking her up. Why did I keep coming in and leaving etc. Nap trained her and she cried for a total of 20 minutes over 2 days and then started taking 1:30 naps and was a much better rested and happier child.

This is a totally different scenario. Cry it out under these circumstances would have been cruel. Your ds was suffering from the effects of food, which his little body couldn’t tolerate and isn’t the same at all as the circumstances under which I left my dd to cry. My dd wasn’t ill or in pain. She’d been fed. Her nappy was clean. She just needed to sleep.

Nah, we shouldn't sleep train a baby

Yes, that was the point that I was making. You are agreeing with me.

You are describing DD to a point @minicrocodile

i think this was where I unintentionally went wrong with DS. I read the Sarah OS books and fervently believed that I’d psychologically damage him if I left him to cry but it actually got us both into bad habits.

i do think DD needs to cry it out, it’s horrible but I don’t think there’s another way of addressing this.

Completely up to you

Oh ok. I misread what you were saying. Bad headache here.

Sarah Ockwell-Smith really tainted my first year of motherhood, I find her brand really toxic. Those books made me feel like such a terrible mother, like my DC was broken because they didn't like co-sleeping or even cuddling particularly.

Her acolytes on here didn't help either. Between them they really undermined my confidence even in my bond with my DC.

My paediatrician (who was an amazing man) spoke in hugely disparaging terms about her methods in an appointment when DC was around five months and it really helped me let go of that and do what felt best for DC.

Have to admit I am never sure why people like to loftily say ‘the babies haven’t read the books’ re Gina ford bur apparently they’ve all read Sarah OS 🤣

Her FB group is filled with women who haven’t slept since 2016 - no thank you 😩

Honestly depends on the baby. The only way to know is to try it and see. I will say that 15 months is tricky regardless.

Just to say OP that I have a psychological aversion to cry it out for all the reasons previously described and I’m not sure that I could’ve done it with my DS.

BUT as an alternative perspective, I’m awake at 5am having not slept since 3am because my now 4-year-old hasn’t got the sleeping memo, and can’t do it, and we don’t know how best to help him.

I’m permanently tired, extremely grumpy and any ‘free’ time I have is spent catching up on sleep rather than doing the things that make me a better, well-rounded person.

i don’t have a Time Machine but if I did, I might tell myself that a week of cry it out might make me a better mum than the shell of the human being I am now.

So honestly, you do you OP.

It's very clear you are a loving mum who wants to help her dc learn to sleep. Sleep deprivation is used to torture for a reason. Do what you need to so you all have proper amounts of sleep. It that's cio so be it. Yes I believe in orphanages it is incredibly damaging. A child in a loving family is not going to be harmed by it.

This made me laugh 🤣🤣 You're absolutely right.

And I know this is a slightly tangential point, but however 'left wing'/'hippy' gentle methods of parenting are, as your comment about none of the women sleeping since 2016 reveals, I think they are another way to push total sacrifice on the part of the mother and are sexist in their own way.

I think often trends move like a pendulum, and actually 'gentle' sleep training is on its way out. It moved from Gina Ford to gentle. When I had DC1 5 years ago every time someone posted gentle parenting wasn't working for them there would be an onslaught of 'you're cruel' 'haven't you read the Romanian orphanage study' 'you can't expect to sleep before the child is 2' blah blah and almost no dissenting voices. The few that did dare to suggest CIO wasn't that bad were often accused of child abuse.

Whereas look at this thread! Lots of people saying 'it didn't work for me and I did CIO' when clearly that wasn't an acceptable thing to admit even 5 years ago.

So hopefully in a couple of years people will get more balanced advice

Although it's more likely there will be someone else along to replace Sarah Ockwell-Smith as the 'right' way of getting your baby to sleep

Lack of sleep is so damaging, both to babies and to adults. Our bodies and minds heal and repair themselves while we sleep.

My eldest was a champion sleeper, 12 hours a night from an early age and huge naps he didn't drop until he was almost 5. He was the happiest little kid but he never, ever went to sleep without screaming himself purple first - he just didn't want to let go. Any attempts to settle him made him angrier, so when he was a little older I gave him a kiss and a pat and left him to it, only ever took a couple of minutes for him to drift off.

Now he's all grown up into a strapping young man and we couldn't be any closer.

@Mummyoflittledragon I'm curious as to how this woman's expertise in anorexia relates to CIO? As a scientist myself these things seem quite far apart but I'm obviously missing some connection?

My 1st would scream and scream for hours at night while I paced holding him until I got tired and would sit and hold him crying. We eventually did cry it out at just before 6m because we were desperate (I was physically sick most days I was so tired). He cried for less than 1/2 an hour for 3 nights and then started just going to sleep with occasional wake ups.

As I saw it, those 3 nights of 1/2 hour crying in his bed was much less stressful than all those nights of me pacing for hours with him crying.

I did do the cry it out but it didn’t work for us no matter how much we persevered. . What worked for us, was gradual withdraw. Stay near cot shushing until quiet, then gradually move near door shushing. Then outside the door shushing. Then add intervals between the shushing. Then stop the shushing but stay there. Then when quiet for a while off to bed. Much needed for 2nd dd when I couldn’t risk her waking dd1.

I think the way I think about it is that in theory the gentle approach is not necessarily about "less tears" but about being there to support the child through the change. Eg being in room may equal more tears (as they are fuming you aren't picking them up). But cry it out (eg extinction method, leave the room no returning) they may cry less overall but they are alone and not supported through this. So it's the parental reassurance that makes it "gentle" rather than less tears? This is theory - I think each to their own in reality - all children are different and we know our children best!!

It totally depends on the child, but yes- the more definite nature of it can be more reliable and consistent which can make it easier for the child to understand.

My son also got really wound up by us coming in and leaving again. It was like starting from square one each time we went in. I also think leaving him to cry a bit was less cruel in total (though it doesnt feel nice) as he needed to learn to settle himself somehow.
However what really helped us was using a nightlight and some calming music at bedtime, he now associates these things with sleep so if he cries in the night I will go in and put them on and he calms down really quickly. He is a bit older though!
If I have another one I will deifnitely do that from a younger age as I think what he needed was the routine and help settling himself. Maybe something similar might help?

I did this for both my twins up to 3’mins, or 1.5mins and back , and it worked for both. It just took a few days to persevere