Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

[TealTraybake]

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

I imagine 'everyone' would not have been happy with that, no. And that is the problem.

People have made some bold statements on this thread- I asked them to clarify, as I wanted to make sure I understood their meaning correctly.

But they won;t be happy.

Being Transgender means you MUST BE VALIDATED which means you CAN'T have separate changing rooms, a third space just for them - they they don't pass / aren't accepted / GRR TRANSPHOBIA

Being trans means you MUST force yourself upon people who don;t believe you. It's an essential part of the act.

Stop deflecting. Tell us what you think a trans woman is

Answer the question, stop deflecting.

They are Males. they will always be Males. They will never be Females.

So they should NEVER be in FEMALE spaces.

it's not about how you look it's about WHO YOU ARE

I'm not convinced that any man who's been through puberty actually passes in real life. There are too many cues that women are biologically primed to pick up on.

Regardless, even if some may slip through, why is that carte blanche to let any man who wants into women's spaces? I don't really understand that argument.

OK, here goes.

I believe that trans women are men.

The reason I believe this is that as far as I'm concerned, "man" means "male person" and "woman" means "female person". Trans women are male people. If they were female they wouldn't be trans women, they would be women. No human in the history of mammalian evolution has ever changed sex.

If you believe that "woman" means something other than "female person", what do you think it means?

Because the way I see it, people who believe trans women are women appear to think that "women" is a category of people which includes most female people (all the ones who believe their gender identity is "woman" or who have no specific beliefs about gender identity but recognise that they are female and call themselves women), except those who identify as trans men or non binary or something else other than a woman, plus a small number of male people who identify as women.

What is the purpose of this category? What do all the people in this group have in common and why do we need a word for that group? Do they all have shared medical needs? No. Are they a coherent grouping for the purposes of sporting competitions? No. Do they all have a similar change of either committing or being a victim of certain types of crimes? No. Do the same kind of clothes fit their bodies? No.

I cannot think of a single thing all these people have in common or a single situation when I would ever need to use a word for that group of people.

I can, however, think of many situations where I would need to use a word that means "female people". A group which includes trans men and some non binary people but excludes men and trans women.

I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY reason why this category exists, the ONLY reason why we need to refer to "people of either sex who call themselves women", is so that people like the male nurse in this case can use women's toilets and changing rooms, and people like Isla Bryson and Karen White can say it is their human right to be housed in women's prisons.

By saying that trans women are women, whether you realise it or not, you are saying, "Female people, you are not allowed to have a word for yourselves, you have no right to have your safety and dignity respected when you are using the toilet or getting changed, you are allowed to say no to men but if a male says he is a woman you are no longer allowed to say no. You are allowed to have boundaries, but only if male people agree that you are allowed to have those boundaries. You are allowed to have the illusion of boundaries, and if that illusion is shattered you must not object because doing so would make you a transphobic bigot."

When you say, "trans women are women", that is what I hear.

If that's not what you mean then I would genuinely like to understand what you do mean when you say "trans women are women".

There is no response I could possibly give you that would invite anything but hostility. I have learned this through experience.

i am here to understand what other people think, not to share my own knowledge which will only fall on very deaf and very angry ears.

Stop deflecting

What is a trans woman?

I’m not deflecting , I’m simply refusing your demand to control the conversation.

Stop deflecting

What is a trans woman?

That's ironic coming from one of the people constantly trying to control everyone else's language.

I don't think they have a definition they can actually type out... it's just a feeling...

how was I doing that?

@piggletoes humans are a sexually dimorphic mammalian species, the adult female of which are called women. This is much like the using the word doe, ewe and cow for their corresponding species. As with all mammals, that sexual dimorphism includes primary and secondary sex characteristics. Those differences are even found on a cellular and molecular level.

You claim that the male of the species can be the same as the female of the species. Burden of proof is on you to prove that.

Go...

I bet the transwoman wouldn't.

I will treat people with respect as long as I am treated in the same way. That does not mean allowing men into female only spaces. Respect doesn't mean giving up my rights and my feeling of safety.

I do understand why people are trans. That doesn't change the fact that I feel a third space is required because while some chant 'a transwoman is a woman' many do not believe the chant and neither should they have to.

Trans people deserve safe spaces and respect, they do not get to take women's safe spaces from them. They complain they are vulnerable, well what in the actual fuck do they think woman have been and still are? There seems to be no consideration other than for themselves and the solution clearly is not to allow any man in a dress to use a woman's space because of course that will abused.

Transwomen may not be predators or doing it to harass women, but how exactly are people meant to identify trans vs predator man in a dress?

"By “tolerance for women”, you mean tolerance for your assertions that you are “perfectly entitled” to “view people” as you like- and presumably treat them as such(?) - regardless of their dignity and lived experience and no matter how cruel, harmful and degrading it is to the person?"

Yes, of course I am perfectly entitled to view people as I like. I didn't realise the trans movement now required thought control too. I can be polite and decent and still believe:
Men = Men
Women = Women
Trans = Trans

I don't get how is it cruel, harmful and degrading to accept a person as they are but also keep safe spaces for women. And forcing women to open up their safe spaces to the potential for harm is cruel, harmful and degrading. Why is there only one view that matters here? Why do women's needs and safety get trampled? Why exactly am I required to understand the lived experience of a trans person yet the same is not offer back in return?

Trans people deserve respect and safely.
Women deserve respect and safety.
Women do not have to give up their respect and safety so someone else can feel validated.
Third spaces are required. It's pretty simple. Except to those who put their validation above another persons safety and comfort.

this makes me worry - it's not exactly clean outside. not disparaging you at all, but it doesn't seem hygienic to have outside clothes on porters, nurses, doctors etc in a hospital. i've often worried about this, and now understand it is the case.

I worry that these women are being supported by the Christian Legal Centre, which has been associated with some distinctly dodgy causes and definitely has more interest in pursuing a christian agenda than in supporting women's rights.

I think you should be more worried about why other organisations are not supporting their cause.

I honestly don't care if the only people stepping up to help them have a dodgy agenda. Their cause is a just one. That's the thing about the whole trans movement, it's only these kinds of orgs who will help because no one else wants to get labelled as being an evil bigot.

Where? I have looked but haven't found it.

So you’re basically saying gender dysphoria doesn’t exist. I’m not an expert, haven’t got a clue what causes it or even if it’s a real thing.
What’s your opinion on transwomen who've fully transitioned ? There’s nuance which as usual gets lost in the genuine outrage.

By "they", I mean males, any males, in female spaces.

But ...... you knew that really.