Female nurses have to get changed with a male. They are told to go to another room. The man keeps the female changing room to himself. Wtaf is going on?

[TealTraybake]

Female nurses ‘forced out of changing rooms’ after complaining about trans colleague

NHS whistleblowers dubbed ‘Darlington Five’ say they feel ‘humiliated and dehumanised’

Read in The Telegraph: https://apple.news/AC7RGaXTPTYe2J4CAixEvDw

Again- can you think of any possible reasons why requiring trans people to use “third space” facilities might not protect the safety and dignity of trans people?

What do you think the issues might be if there are any?

Are you even willing to consider this, or is it simply that , in the words of a pp, you couldn’t give a fuck about the safety and dignity of trans people? that the truth is - , despite claims that you agree trans people deserve respect and safety- you actually don’t think their dignity and safety is worthy of consideration at all?

Trouble is women can't tell who are the Isla Brysons or Katie Dolatowskis and other men who don't respect women's boundaries. Given that more than 70% of trans prisoners are in prison for offences of sex and violence of course we should be concerned about these men having access to girls and women when vulnerable.

Or, you could be deflecting because you don't have an answer? Maybe if you enlightened us we would understand more. Why would third space not work for them? I've outlined why I don't think it should be a problem, but what am I missing?

I absolutely do think everyone is entitled to safety and dignity no matter how they identify, Shame you don't feel that way, not when it comes to women, anyway.

I do not think this is women's problem to solve.

We are fully fledged humans in our own right.

We don't have to prioritise trans people's welfare above our own.

We're not their carers.

PS - I didn't say I don't give a fuck about their safety and dignity. I said I don't give a fuck if they feel they need to have access to unconsenting naked women and girls. This is a want, not a need.

Again- can you think of any possible reasons why requiring trans people to use “third space” facilities might not protect the safety and dignity of trans people?

It's not reasonable to TW to require the presence of unconsenting women in their private spaces. Thats not about safety or dignity.

I do not think this is women's problem to solve.

So protecting the safety and dignity of trans people isn’t a legitimate public policy concern?

What is unsafe or undignified about using a third space for people like them?

Don't waste your breath. I've asked them several times. They won't answer.

I think it's a much lower priority than protecting the safety of women and girls, to be honest.

Ideally we would do both. But if the two are incompatible (the trans woman needs to have access to unconsenting naked women and girls in order to feel safe, and the women and girls need the trans woman not to be there in order to feel safe), then I would prioritise the women and girls without losing a single second of sleep over it.

Because if you think one male person trumps a hundred female people, you are a misogynist of the highest order.

Who knows ? What do you want to happen to them ? Like it or not they’re not going away.

And, of course, the two would not be compatible if trans people would accept third spaces. Unless. Piggle can finally explain why they would not be safe with other trans people.

Why would third space not work for them?

I think you would get a much better answer to that question by asking a trans person, and then really listening and hearing their answer.

However, I can imagine a few reasons- I was wondering if you could imagine any? One reason I can imagine is around “outing”- requiring trans women to out themselves to all each time they use facilities could be a violation of their privacy, compromise their safety, and reinforce stigma and social ostricisatjon for example.

So third spaces are the solution but if we create third spaces at great expense and then they refuse to use them, our fallback position is still, "Sorry women and girls, your safety and dignity isn't important"?

oh well said 👏

Being able to correctly identify a man as a man is not "a violation of privacy".

I'm pretty sure the male nurse who pranced around the women's changing room in her underwear with her male genitalia clearly visible, talking about how she'd stopped her hormone treatment because she was trying to her partner pregnant had already outed herself tbh.

Most of them out themselves simply by existing, since almost no trans person successfully passes.

And even then, so what?

Why is their largely hypothetical concern about being outed more important than the concerns of a Muslim employee or a rape survivor about having to get undressed in the presence of a male stranger?

What happens if they are outed? Almost certainly nothing.

When I trained this was very much frowned on for hygiene reasons.

And, I think you'll find I mentioned it possibly being outing in a previous post that you ignored.

Say it does let people know they are trans and that makes them worry for their safety why is that any worse than women having to worry about their own safety when males are permitted in their spaces?

I would say there is no stigma in using the correct facilities for what and who you are either. In fact, I'd look a lot more favourably on a transwoman who chose to use a third space instead of violating women's boundaries. I'd think good on them.

I think it's a much lower priority than protecting the safety of women and girls, to be honest.

How can protecting the safety and dignity of any person be less important than protecting the safety and dignity of any other person? Are all people not born free and equal in dignity and rights?

Or do you consider trans people as a group to be sub human or of lesser moral worth than other people?

"all" no.
"enough that it makes a difference" yes

Stop deflecting
what is a trans woman?

Stop deflecting
what is a trans woman?

You don’t think being outed as trans is a violation of a trans persons privacy? Or that this could compromise their safety?

Stop deflecting
what is a trans woman?

Also no male on earth passes as female, they out themselves by walking around

A changing room without women in, is just a changing room.

Its not the changing room they want to use. Its the women.

Be that for validation reasons or for more nefarious reasons.

Women need to consent for that to be ok if they are to be used. Not just a few, but ALL the women impacted. These women do not consent.

In effect the impact on multiple women needs to be taken into consideration versus the impact on one male - both argue its an affront to their dignity and privacy. The women also are arguing about their safety and concerns about harassment. All people being equal you act so there is the least impact on the fewest people.

Basically the male needs to suck it up and a third space found. Its a reasonable adjustment balancing multiple needs. Thats all the NHS have to show in a court of law.

But no. We are having this argument cos some bloke is having a tantrum.

We need to stop indulging in. What pisses me off is its women who are having to foot the bill and the emotional labour of equality.