Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

I would move in a heartbeat in your position.

I was in Europe during the summer and I felt like crying when I came home. Everything just WORKED there. Nothing is working as it should here. If you can move, then move. Good luck.

Yeah that chimes with me.

I also have to say I'm not loving the seemingly constant "immigrants not welcome, you're all a drag on society" kind of message that seems so pervasive (although depressingly its a thing in so many countries now). It doesn't go down amazingly when you're a net contributor and know that your "contributions" are going to be hiked soon! Makes me feel a bit "well if you don't want me and my taxes, you don't have to have them." I felt this quite sharply during the recent riots, the polling Reform are getting too.

I'm happy to contribute more, not happy to be treated badly when I have given a lot to this country. Even on this thread there have been some people with a "well if you're so unhappy here it's not like we wanted you anyway" kind of attitude. I think a lot of professional, mobile people like me are sick of being attacked as "citizens of nowhere" by some of the Brexity types and seeing this constantly in the media.

The thing is I actually do have quite a few friends who left London, in some cases solely due to the quality of life, they've told me their rent/mortgage and their bills so it's not a secret. Cost of living in London is a lot: rent, bills, transport all of these are a lot more than Paris for example. It's standard in most good Parisian professional jobs to have free transport, really nice food, longer holidays etc all paid for by work. New York is super expensive (although typically much better salaries too) but London really is much worse than a lot of places when it comes to affordability.

Yeah I think you're totally right about the quality of life and disposable income being radically different in many different places, it really is amazing when you see just how differently people can live elsewhere. I think London is worth the pain when you have family ties here, then there's a strong pull factor that's worth the "London tax."

I don't plan to live near family (and wouldn't live in my home country) but I'd want to be within maybe 8 or 9 hours of Europe ideally.

Thanks so much! Yes staying in London for friends seems a bit silly when I know most will probably end up moving out to commuter belts/the countryside anyway.

Abu Dhabi sounds really interesting, I'm interested in learning more about the UAE as a possibility. From looking online it seems Dubai and AD are very close and it could even be possible to work across the cities. The standard of life is definitely a lot higher, my job out there would give me a whole different life.

Have you been there long? Is it a difficult move or one where you can find your feet quickly?

What I don't understand is why you are still in London?

You think it is terrible, you think other places are better... okay great! Decision made!

Why are you still here ruminating? If you genuinely think your life will be better in Abu Dhabi (!?!?) why aren't you living there?

I feel like you might spend the next forty years gloomily listing the reasons London sucks, without digging yourself out of your rut. Too many people do that when literally nobody is begging them to stay.

@DozensOfRoses well Paris is a good option then . I must admit housing looked very expensive to me when we looked- no different to London but I'm open minded and maybe it's because of what we were looking for-!!

Yes I do agree, I don't want to be a person who sits around dissatisfied.

I've started speaking to recruiters who cover some of the countries of interest, the relocation packages are really good so it should be a smooth transition. I'm going to take some annual leave to deal with the logistics, due to notice periods I'll have plenty of time to manage the move anyway, it's more just making sure I pick the right role in the right place for me. I'd be able to move overseas with my current job in 12 months, if I want to go sooner I'll have to change companies. Am open to both possibility currently, it will depend on whether there's something more tempting available in the next few months.

I'll keep my flat and rent it out for via a corporate letting agent (this seems easier and more reliable than a standard letting).

Housing is cheaper than London but not massively so (quite dependent on the area, but there is a lot more cheaper options more centrally). Longer term one of the things that is fantastic though is how nice and cheap transport is (all my friends there get free commuting from work as standard). Parisian "commuter towns" don't require you to spend £6k a year on trains so they're a good option longer term too.

I'd go if I were you

Do you speak French op? May have missed that part, and also isn't tax higher?

@DozensOfRoses I haven't lived/worked in the UAE but almost everyone I know has, including my DSis and I have visited a lot. And yes, it's perfectly possible to live in one city and work in another Emirate. RAK and Sharjah are probably the less attractive options.

As a pp said, there's lots of normal things to do that aren't shopping and brunches. It is expensive, but generally well paid, and there's lots of help with relocation -- which was what my sis did.

I do actually! But I'm not planning to move to Paris, it's a lovely city, I enjoy visiting friends there but I don't think I want to set up there permanently. It's also not the easiest move, there's not a lot of turnover of jobs in some sectors so it would only make sense for a really long term move.

Tax is hard to directly compare: it's not a low tax place but a lot of things are subsidised as standard. I'd get free health, transport, breakfast and lunch as standard for example.

That's really good to know, thank you!

Does your sister like it there? Is she there for the long term? I'm definitely strongly considering checking it out

They were there for about 15 years, but have retired now. But DBIL worked for a big multinational and they were serial expatriates since the 1980s, so have lived all over the world. They liked Dubai most of the time, but the summer gets frustrating as it's too hot to do anything outdoors, even swim! From October to April it's wonderful... great sports for players and spectators, good beaches, some wonderful food, cheap taxis, etc. etc. It's less easy to start a company than you might think, and much more expensive because you need to pay for licenses to trade which rack up fast.

She occasionally complained that it can feel a bit claustrophobic/ quite cramped unless you get away fairly regularly, and the endless constant construction gets tedious. If you go away, they start re routing the roads in your absence! I had a taxi driver once who said he went to visit his family in Egypt for four weeks each year, and he had to find out what had changed every time.

Does anyone know if someone moves to Abu Dhabi or Dubai how does old age and retirement work?

Do people have to save enough money to support themselves to live independently for decades through any care/support/healthcare they need? Is there a welfare state or healthcare if someone's money runs out?

Do ex pats continue to live in these countries through old age and dying or do they go "home" at some point and does their home country then get lumbered with their care and support needs and expenses when they have avoided contributing to the country for decades?

There is no welfare state for those retiring in the UAE, except for Emirati citizens. You save and build up your company pension.

Just out of interest because I have no direct experience - how does dating in the UAE work? Does it have to be conducted within the confines of the international hotel scene or are you free to wander holding hands / kiss in public? Can you co-habit with a partner if you’re not married? I did some training for the police from the UAE once and that was an alarming experience - very militaristic model and much more extensive powers around use of force than the U.K. I’ve only ever heard negative press regarding it relationships out there eg the couple caught having sex on the beach and a guy who was arrested for brushing against another guy in a club. I don’t actually know how it works in reality.

I dated in the UAE and met my now husband there. I would say dating is similar to anywhere else but you prob do have to be careful about public affection. If some uptight emirati sees you and decides they don't like it, that's it and you have no recourse. Living together outside of marriage is also "illegal" and you can go to jail for it, but everyone does it, we did. Again it comes down to someone seeing you and having a problem with it, again typically an emirati, nobody else really has any rights in the UAE.

Overall I would never recommend the UAE as a place to live, esp for women, it's still an Arab country so it's incredibly backwards and should you get in trouble for any reason, you're done, you have no recourse, no rights, no nothing. It's also soul less, boring as hell and has horrible weather. I would say the only upside to living in the UAE is that you can find find a well paid job (only if you have "white" citizenship mind you, US, UK, European, etc, forget it if you have Indian or Pakistan citizenship and no status) and it's tax free. Beyond that I found it horrible, and for anybody who wants to get upset over this feel free, but I lived there for many years, I have family there and I'm an American of Indian origin who experienced Dubai with both passports so I can say for sure how vastly diff it can be, I've also experienced the horrific racism which absolutely exists though plenty of white women constantly love telling me otherwise.

Also, be prepared to provide photos of yourself when applying for jobs, even when it has no bearing on the job. I was once asked for a full body photo when applying for a business dev manager position. So yeah....fuck that place.

I will also add that when I first moved to Dubai and was looking for a job, quite a few people told me that it's good that I'm pretty, nothing about my qualifications or work ethic, just that I'm pretty and that is apparently the only thing that matters and the only thing that will help me get a job. God forbid you are not a pretty, single woman in Dubai. That really says it all in terms of what it's like for women ...

Sure if you are white, married and your husband or yourself already has an amazing well paid job with a large corporation you will say it's amazing bc it's good money and no taxes, but that really is just not the norm for most people looking to move abroad.
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Definitely go for it. You're in the perfect position - no ties, already on the property ladder here in a very rentable location, good job prospects. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

My DH and I left the U.K. for a two year adventure almost a decade ago, and we have never gone back. Like you, we had property which we rented until we made a final decision where we wanted to be. We've lived in Asia, the Middle East (Dubai) and now settled in Europe.

Dubai is a very marmite place. I would definitely visit first before you commit. You can still earn good money although cost of living is also very high. Lots of high end hotels, restaurants, beach clubs, golf clubs, bling and gleam. Valet parking just for the supermarket. Culture can be tracked down albeit nothing like London. But you can forget European style city living: you'll be in a car every day and it's very zoned - no bars in your local mall, no cafes in a residential street. Too hot to be outside for more than 10 minutes for MONTHS (more car time). Rampant inequality with many people from poor countries working long shifts 6 days a week in gardens and as domestic workers while the Americans and Europeans live it up. Double standards for western women that local women would never be permitted. It left a nasty taste in my mouth.

If Asia is too far for you, then honestly I would go for another European capital. Same lifestyle with more disposable income, better weather, prettier surroundings, less unequal society. And you have the option of settling permanently if you meet someone or just love your new home. Easier to maintain the ties you have, to pop home for a weekend or have friends come to you. I like Copenhagen, Berlin, Madrid, Amsterdam if you stay out of the tourist bits. Language skills a must outside the Nordic's and Netherlands, although that can also be a great way to meet people and expand your horizons.

In your position, I'd do my research, make a shortlist and go visit the top 2-3 places. Then rent out your flat and just throw yourself into the adventure. Even if you end up going back to London, it will be with more appreciation as an active choice not just drifting on. I'd ve willing to bet you never come back though ... 😉

@doihaveacase I agree- I like those places too plus maybe Stockholm - I enjoyed living in Copenhagen a lot and like the Scandi lifestyle and in my opinion and if it's important the scandi countries do well on the 'men' front. I agree totally about Dubai too- but then I'm not really a blingy person- nor a fan of very hot weather for months on end without much shade

"
Does anyone know if someone moves to Abu Dhabi or Dubai how does old age and retirement work?"

You cannot stay on in Dubai without a work permit or owning a property. You still need to pay high residency fees. You don't see many old people in Dubai 😂

As to whoever said nothing works in the UK don't go to the UAE. You will tear your hair out with red tape.

I actually left the Uk And stayed away for over 40 years so go for it/ travelled, made a shedload of money and now love living back here in the UK.