Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

Jesus @DozensOfRoses, you are SO negative about London! I've lived in London for a lot longer than you (but have had my various stints working and living abroad, some long term in Asia and France, and some more short term in other parts of Asia, the US and various European countries) and the place you're describing as London is unrecognisable to me. And I live in inner London in an area MNers consider "rough" and extremely mixed/poor (when actually I've never been the victim of any crime in London for over 30 years - and that was in Highgate). It's very clear you've had enough and are seeing EVERYTHING through a very negative lens and it sounds like your friends are too!

So get out! Go overseas! Enjoy a different lifestyle and see if that makes you happier. If for no other reason than the change will do you good. I came back from overseas with a new appreciation for London and the UK.

Please don't take my post as criticism. I know how you feel (apart from the children 'fixation') and I reached a similar point myself years ago (as per my earlier post) and I ended up working in Asia (and various other places) for quite a few years. The solution is get out and have a change!

However, before you go, make sure you're not seeing everything through rose-tinted glasses. Don't assume you will meet the partner of your dreams, settle down and have a family there, or love the lifestyle forever. Other countries / cities have their own challenges / problems. Nowhere is perfect. Living and working there (especially on a local contract) is VERY different from visiting or even working there on a short term secondment. From supermarkets to employment law to the cost of living, expect to be surprised. Go with an open mind and prepare to be flexible and enjoy the experience.

Go for it.

Have a look into corporate letting for your flat - it tends to be long term, and has reliable income.

@DozensOfRoses have family members in both countries. Both were in the same position as you - early 30s, single professionals working in London. Both retain UK property but don’t have any plans to come back soon. I think AD is far nicer than Dubai as a place to live, on so many levels - much less built up. From what I can see, they have a far better quality of life than they would do here in the U.K. I’m quite envious: we have a very healthy income but even so our income here does not equate to a great quality of life. And plus I’m even more envious of the weather and getting away from all the rain…

Yes, it's sooo lovely to live under an authoritarian government. 🙄

@DozensOfRosesIf I were you I would certainly look into options of living overseas. But not in any of the countries listed in the post I quoted.

Have a change! Sounds like things are a bit stale and you’re not stuck so don’t be.

I love London btw and when you live there it can feel like the only place in the uk. It’s not. I still love it but don’t feel the need to live there anymore. Haven’t missed it once.

I'd move. Used to live there but when I visit now I leave feeling exhausted and pleased to be going back to my nice, clean market town!

Thank you, that's really helpful and I agree with what you're saying.

I think part of what is making me so down on London at the moment is my finances. It feels so frustrating to work so hard, do so well on paper and then see almost everything vanish between tax, student loans, mortgage and utilities, all to live somewhere far worse than where friends overseas do. It's hard to see how this is sustainable longer term. I want to work hard but also have a good quality of life, something to show at the end for it. Everything I read on here and doing the calculations of my potential financial position in the future just suggest it will get worse not better.

I feel like the young people I know in London (late 20s-mid 30s) are all pretty down on London at the moment because of the costs, which makes the quality of life not what it was. I'm just glad I'm not renting, I think I would have already left if I was. I'm not sure if there's a difference in perception by life stage, but I hear a lot of people questioning if it's worth it anymore.

I think you should move. When you have so many negative views of a place it is best to go and find somewhere that does make you happy, rather than staying in a state of discontentment. If you find the grass isn't greener, you can always return with a more cheerful perspective.

I think this is true of so many things - jobs, relationships...if you don't like it, act.

Interesting, thank you!

Yes it seems one of the biggest differences to be honest is the housing and related costs: the "normal" kind of expected place to live is just so much nicer, bigger, more central and more luxurious than the UK equivalent. And with that so much more of your income can go in other ways. Expectations a lot higher for what a standard professional would expect in life. I'll look into AD more.

I think housing is probably the single biggest thing that screws everything up in the UK. I could afford to buy somewhere nice in a lot of other major cities

Bit contradictory there. Saying you no longer like the place in your open8ng post, but then saying you love the city. I used to live in London many years ago, and must admit that when I return to visit friends I fell ver6 disconnected, as it has changed beyond recognition. It’s soulless and dirty and dangerous in places. I live in the North, and life is a lot better - more chilled. Some really lovely rural areas. I don’t think you have a UK problem, but you do have a London one. If you can, explore other parts of the UK where you could do the type of work you’re doing. It’s so easy to be blinkered when you live in London - like you’re in your own bubble, oblivious to the rest of the UK, because you believe the hype about how London is the only place to be. And it really isn’t.

Where would you consider, if you were in my shoes?

Very true, I do have strongly contradictory views. I love London but it feels less "London" to me than it did. Which I know makes very little sense! I think what I liked was the (1) feeling of ambition, buzz, internationalism, always things on, while also (2) being a real city where people lived and just went about their business as normal. I feel like both those strands have got worse: I don't know if it's Brexit or something else but I think the community of international young professionals is less happy than it was a few years ago. And the second strand of ordinary lives just doesn't feel as good, due to crime and the cost of everything.

Anyway, for work reasons the rest of the UK isn't really a possibility. And at this stage I'm not really looking for a chiller pace in life so I think I'd be more attracted to going overseas. I do think for a lot of London young professionals without any family ties considering leaving London the choice is where overseas not where in the UK.

Yes, definitely move. You won’t regret it for a second.

Errrr.. no, what is your evidence for this?

I'd move in a heartbeat x

Very true, I think I'm at the place psychologically where I just need to go. If I pick the move wisely then I should't have any difficulty moving back if need be.

I've been following the rental reforms and am a bit worried about those TBH. I suppose if I rent my apartment out for corporate short stays that deals with the issue in part, but if capital gains tax goes up a lot in the Budget that would hit me (and probably also tax on rentals etc). I wouldn't want to cut ties with the UK overnight but I think that might end up being the best decision financially for me.

I have lived in London for many years/decades and still love it. I would move abroad (to some places) in a heart beat but - guess what, that pesky referendum put pay to the easy route.
OP, if you can get sponsorship to move abroad then I would, it's a great life experience. Largely I would avoid the US and/or Australia - those are just personal preferences (although I can share in more detail about why I would NEVER work in the US again).

I think it depends a lot on what you like? For me if it's not London it won't be anywhere else in the UK. I also want to live somewhere that is culturally international rather than specifically culturally English/UK. Somewhere with a big international professional population, cosmopolitan life, where everything works well and life is convenient. Also where there is a lot of booming international corporate work.

For me, I think moving overseas would be less of a move than moving out of London.

Thank you, that's helpful. I would definitely avoid the US on the grounds of work culture, without even getting into anything else. It's one of the worst places for work-life balance, not that I'm particularly interested in that but I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with the US extreme! I don't need European level holidays but not sure I'd be up for the American level either!

Would be interested to hear about experiences if anyone has made the move to the Middle East as a professional?

OP where ever you go you have to deal with life's drudgery.

All places have their own issues.
Even those you see in rose tinted glasses.

Good luck with wherever you chose.

Having lived in Europe, Middle East, and Canada and back to London.
It all can be v different yet still expensive in different ways.
Connections, friends make a difference.
However they can change too.

I looked at how much it would cost to move back to singapore (am singaporean) with a British dh and buying a condo on private market would be 60% more than what I paid for my 2 bed flat in z3 for the same square footage. nett salary would be 30% more but still doesnt help with increase of mortgage. Can't really buy government subsidized flat until my dh get permanent residency (as he would only be legal occupier in a flat I buy) and as I own my flat in London would have to wait 15 months to buy the government flat due to their grace period policy. I am a citizen and singapore protects its citizens but it just looks v unattractive even with the low tax rate.

Entire western world has a housing crisis but even though my flat is tiny and would have been a single woman's flat a century ago, it only takes up 18% of household income and dh can cycle to work. Nhs is crap but there is prospect of getting an ivf cycle on the nhs (we have fertility issues but I am 32 years old and tbh if we didn't have a kid, current flat is good enough). So even though things are not amazing in London, I thank God everyday I am not a new entrant and that my dh is a born and bred londoner which meant I benefitted from being able to buy property at 2.05% interest rates as living with his mum allowed me to save a deposit in my 20s when low mortgage interest rates existed.

Just make sure it's not an illusion that their quality of life is better, the grass isn't always greener. Other countries do have higher taxes often, not just income taxes, I have friends from many European countries and all are moaning about very similar issues.

Another thing I would put to you is make sure that you are comparing like with like - I'm sure your tiny apartment is worth similar to my 3 bed house next to a marina! Not all the issues are solved by moving from London but most are in my experience.