Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

Isn't there 0% tax?!

This is tough, op. I work in a profession which is continually denigrated and devalued especially in the press. The UK in general has become quite depressing. Superficially, people are rude and entitled but I get it because things don't seem to work as well as they did when I was growing up (90s/00s) and people are scared that they cannot readily access things like healthcare. My profession is well regarded abroad and many English-speaking countries readily recruit. I would like to go to one of these countries for 6 months to experience what it's like but unfortunately would not be able to make the move full-term due to strong family ties. I also have a partner and baby. I think in your position I would maybe make a temporary move and see how you feel after a year. I still think the UK is a great country but the serious social problems are starting to become somewhat overwhelming.

You're young. I would relocate. Not sure where because I'm a nurse living in Leeds and not a London banker. Family members who were relocated to San Francisco. Lovely climate but my god it's expensive! Plus the culture is all work and no holidays. Britain has its benefits.

I left London 16 years ago, in my early 30's. I had similar feelings to you about the place - every day felt like a slog and I wasn't enjoying life. The city I moved to provides an easier way of life and it was palpable immediately. I've since had children in this new place - childcare is better here and there is a culture of workplaces being flexible about childcare, even before the pandemic. I have also been able to move my career forward significantly, own a house here, and have a good life. So I'm broadly happy about the move.

A few things to consider from my experience:

• I didn't realise at the time, but a move at that age was one way. I thought I was trying it out and would likely move back, but life here took over to the point it has been harder and harder to contemplate another international move
• Making friends was much harder here for me than in London. The London network was much better
• In my view, nowhere has the ambition that you feel in London (perhaps New York), so seeking that in other cities can be a let down. Same with cultural life
• I miss friends and family enormously and still wonder if the move was worth it due to that alone. I wonder how much better all of those relationships would be if I had stayed. And while I have friends here, I don't have the easy relationships with them that I have with family and older friends so socialising here is always a bit more effortful

I'm more settled (46, married & 2 kids in school here). I have lived elsewhere - moved back and forth to the states while the kids were little. It's a good experience, but ultimately I prefer being here for various reasons. The biggest of which is probably family.

It's definitely worth trying out for a few years. Keep the London flat.

I found it enriching but quite lonely. Might not be an issue for you - you sound more gregarious and better networked than I am. But you can visit a place and have friends clustering round because you're only there for a short time, and find they're less available when you live there.

I found there was a transmission when I was your age. Friends were coupling up and having babies and that early 20s intense sociability naturally got a bit lost.

These aren't reasons not to do it! But don't assume you'll be able to recapture a different time in your life by moving.

Transmission= transition

I would move. What's stopping you? You have no partner or children to consider. You don't have to sell your London property, you could get a 2 years contract first and see if you like it or not.

My advice would be go for it!

As a back-up, rent out your flat so that you have something to come back to if things don't live up to expectations.

Be prepared to learn another language if necessary (otherwise you can be trapped in an expat bubble).

Go with an open mind and be pragmatic. The grass is rarely much greener!
I've lived in three other countries and while I have no regrets whatsoever, ultimately I ended up back in the UK and I feel my experiences abroad help me to see the UK in quite an objective way (there are things that are better elsewhere, and other things that are better here). Nowhere is perfect.

I'd say give a new place at least 2-3 years before making any decisions about staying there or potentially coming back. And if you do come back, don't view it as a failure in any way! Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You're in a fortunate position to have an "adventure" while also having a career that pays well.

Good luck!

You were on one pathway when with a partner and now that the relationship has gone the city no longer suits you. Once you get to you 30s you want a better quality of life which usually means a partner and the income they bring. There's no reason to stay in London. The UK has massive problems and there's no easy fix. High earners are about to take it in the neck even more than we already do. Switzerland, Luxembourg, Hong Kong, Sydney, Chicago, New York, Boston, LA are all options I would look at. The US is huge and honestly the way the media portrays it doesn't reflect reality. You'd have a much better quality of the life.

Can I come with you?

I'd move. Dh and me keep discussing moving but it's not easy work wise and the kids are so settled here that I worry about unending their lives.

I love many things here but my main worry is the NHS. I'm not sure we will be able to get timely, good quality health care if we should ever need it.

try Edinburgh

Hi OP.

We lived in Melbourne for a few years in our mid-20s. Went back recently (now 50) and we were surprised how much it's changed. The city centre is much more oppressive than London - all skyscrapers, very grey, no greenery. Suburbs such as St Kilda have noticeable street homelessness now and other suburbs to the north of the city are much scruffier / run down. Honestly, I think you'd be bored after a few months.

Sydney - we didn't revisit, so can't comment. But Australia is just so far from everywhere - you'd have to really love it. Fantastic as it is in many ways.

We also lived in NYC for a while in our 20s. Obviously, its beyond fantastic in its way and there's nowhere else like it. But, the winters are much harsher; August is unbearably humid and the height of the buildings can get very oppressive. London has everything NYC has, but it just feels like a 'softer' environment.

Paris is amazing, but has many of the same issues as London - ie. you need money to live well.

Switzerland - never lived there, so can't comment.

Dubai - it wouldn't be my cup of tea. Maybe a year or so there? I passed through there last week - it was 42 degrees at 3am. It's a very 'fake' vapid lifestyle to me. I'm sure there's a lot if financial opportunity though.

We have family in Toronto and I wouldn't want to live there. Car culture. It's not walkable. Freezing snow gif months in end. Quite boring. Flat landscape. Love the people and the diversity but, compared to London, no.

I don't know about Singapore.

Honestly, it is always a case of 'the grass is greener.' At your age, I'd try the adventure of somewhere else for a few years if it's going to be a good move for you financially. The alternative would be to just have a plan to move to (or back to) a better part of London, if and when you start a family. Places like Chelsea and out into SW London are great for kids. Yes it's expensive, but the schools are world class, loads of green spaces, very walkable, mild climate, clean streets, good public transport, diverse cultures, endless shops / restaurants and your can run / walk / cycle for miles along the Thames and the interconnecting parks as the river meanders through. All the theatres and museums and everything on your doorstep for kids. And London has a much more 'liveable' kind of villagey vibe and much more greenery than a lot of other world-class cities. I think it's only when you're abroad, that you realise this.

who isn't in one or both categories? If one isn't, might as well live in some grim northern town?

@DozensOfRoses You said you have hope for the new government - in the nicest way, why then are you thinking of moving now? If your hopes are high for them surely you would stay until you see the improvements you think they are going to make?

I can fully understand your comments about having friends, or family in new places, be they UK or elsewhere, but pretty much with any move you get out of it what you put in, that means you have to make friends, not rely on already having them in the new destination.

I have worked in many Scandinavian countries - they are very family orientated and sometimes seem difficult to be seen as welcoming but I always found with effort this isn't the case. They are more blunt than Brits, so will say "no we do not want to meet for a coffee" that doesn't mean they never want to, just it doesn't fit currently but to some Brits that could be misunderstood as being unfriendly!

As the old adage goes, if you're tired of London you're tired of life...

But London is an over priced shithole, anyone would be depressed there unless they're billionaires.

I haven't rtft but the first thing that comes to mind if you sell your flat and do want to return it'll be harder

Also think about your future and whether you'd like to settle somewhere if you meet someone

Otherwise why not?

Not really I know loads of people who are happy here, but it's not for everyone

I love London with all my heart and have had a fantastic 12 years living here.

However I am moving overseas.

Reason? Stagnant wages and drop in standard of living.

At your age, I'd rent out the flat and move abroad and try it out for a couple of years. You've nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you don't try, you might have regrets later on in life.

Go experience and enjoy the world. London will still be here if you ever change your mind.

I wouldn't bother moving up North or out of London. It's definately cheaper to live out of London but the social side, it's not as exciting.

Sydney Oz

@DozensOfRoses I will give you some examples of when we lived in Copenhagen and we used to go to Stockholm a lot too which was similar.

Advantages
Didn't rain as much- much more seasonal, rarely got really hot but summers seemed pleasant , and winters were more sleet and a bit more snow and fog but rarely utterly freezing

Air quality- amazing- water quality- you could swim in lakes and sea and crystal clear

Food- excellent if eating out - supermarkets definitely lesser than UK - couldn't find anywhere up to M&S and Waitrose, Lidl and Aldi dominate , although Meny wasn't too bad- more level of Sainsbury's. don't really go for ready meals- I did a lot of cooking!! Not cheap - Sweden cheaper than Denmark by some margin

Childcare- amazing and cheap, no council tax , utilities slightly lower than uk and heating is off the planet good as is build quality of homes

Wages- higher- tax higher - but far more covered off - as I say no council tax , lower cost childcare

Housing- I can honestly say every place we looked at to rent was totally mint! However big deposits on rentals, no scheme like we have for deposits and you are expected to 100% return property to new at end of term - painted, floors stripped- the full works! We got screwed!! My friend as an example had a beautiful 3 bed flat in lovely area - house and home standard - £2200 a month, so cheaper than London and better . There is lots of very affordable and good social housing but as an expat you won't get it. If you buy- it's not straightforward as a non Dane - they have restrictions and it's almost London money but not quite.

Friendships- not easy- lovely people but very family minded , not so keen to welcome newcomers in terms of deep friendships , however they are polite and sociable on a casual basis so you are more likely to make friends with non locals - however there were lots of expat socials but geared at the under 35s . Which didn't suit us but will suit you

So in summary I would say overall lifestyle is better and very healthy but you won't have loads more money ( tax) or suddenly be buying 4 bed houses. And I think this applies to anywhere worldwide of any size with 'a buzz' -lots of middle class people and high paid professionals and good transport links . Most of the people I know with good lifestyles in such places are dual income or bought years ago or have 'family money' or inheritances. It's easy for it all to seem far better too with much better weather.

Finally men - well seemed likemany fabulous healthy solvent blokes who are very into equal partners and childcare - but - the women were fab too- !! High expectations in housework too it seemed- my neighbours both sides constantly seemed to be at it cleaning, hosing patios .

I def think it's worth having a few years away though as it's a really individual thing and will give you a different angle on things. Personally I would give Dubai a swerve but have a look at places like Amsterdam, Madrid etc -New York has a lot of what might appeal but housing is the big issue on one income. !!

nah i love london, my favourite city in the world. It is becoming an inheritocracy though but that doesn't mean you need to be from a rich family, just the circumstances need to match. Someone with supportive parents and grandparents (who bought in the 50s to 90s or made full use of Right to Buy) and who is decently ambitious (having a partner also helps) is pretty well set up to succeed and have all the benefits associated with living in the capital city, best public transport in the UK, best state comprehensives in the UK, lots of universities.

Those of us who have that have a different experience and there are lots of us and we aren't 'rich'.