Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

Oh and on the not everything is rosy, I know people recently returned from Sydney because the work culture was crazy and they couldn't afford a bedsit within an hour. Another friend moved from Paris to Amsterdam then onto Britain(not London) and said it was pretty bad in both those capitals for rents and buying. Another friend moved from Berlin to rural Germany as they couldn't afford to live there comfortably on a 6 figure salary ... capital city issues

I do think that around 30 has always been a classic age for moving out of London. It’s an age when you start to think about wanting a proper home not a small flat and you are less interested in partying hard. I left at 30 and friends were doing the same or moving out to commuter belt towns. Those still living in London proper by 40 were the outliers or the ones who had made a LOT of money.

Thanks, that is very interesting and well done on making it all work. A lot of competing things to balance. Singapore is an amazing place and functions so well but definitely not cheap, I've also heard from people who moved there that it is not an easy place to establish yourself. So somewhere great to live over a long time or visit, but not an easy place for quick settling down.

There's definitely no ideal place!

@DozensOfRoses
Based on my experience.
Switzerland - boring as fuck and full of weird rules
Paris - les rues sont plein du merde des chiens - really it's true (lived there for the best part of a year, was so dirty)
Canada - not a clue, have friends who live there and love it.
Australia - (have relatives there), if you like misogyny and racism then fill your boots
UAE - as above, especially misogyny. Yes you can enjoy yourself but only amongst expats. Dubai, in my experience is soulless
If I was 29, I'd go for Singapore then HK (wonderful, less so nowadays what with the China tension etc)

I find it very strange that a single, childless, 20 something person would post about this on mumsnet of all places

Because it's a great source of information for all of life's circumstances?
@Flopsythebunny get over yourself

Yes, and I'm already stuck with UK student loans too which will follow me wherever I go! Thankfully I'll be in a position where they should be paid back in a couple of years which will make a huge difference.

Taxes definitely higher in a good few places, but in many cases salaries are too. London seems to be in a weird place at the moment of fairly high taxes and fairly low salaries (when compared to other countries).

@DozensOfRoses

Be wary of Canada too, the major cities have big city issues with Vancouver being particularly bad, makes London seem cheap too! Family have recent moved from the Vancouver suburbs to Calgary as permanently wfh these days. Safety was a major reason, mugging in particular. The electric scooters are part of the problem

Op is experiencing fiscal drag where she is earning a good salary in London but the cost of housing here is often calibrated to the budgets of those who benefit from generational wealth or derive their wealth from investments (for anything but the most modest homes in desirable areas or homes in the most downmarket areas). She wants to be a professional in an exciting vibrant world class city where she gets the standard of living which you would expect as someone who has done well in her corprlotate career. Manchester/Bristol don't exactly fit the market let alone many towns in England.. perhaps places like paris or dubai would, former because properties are cheaper relative to income, latter because of attractive expat packages and greater supply of homes (also due to slave labour).

I have come to terms with it because I accept that for most places in the world, return on capital exceeds return on labour. So this lifestyle is inaccessible to all but the highest earners (and even they could be surpassed by those who are high earning and have generational wealth). My parents don't fund me so my main source of subsistence is labour which doesn't pay terribly well in London but the one thing in my favour is that I am not a new entrant and have owned since 2019 and had a 15% deposit which has grown to 35% equity. I am not sure I would be such a high earner in other countries (including my home country and also my DH as he earns 66% more than me ) that the return on that would surpass what I have in London. My mortgage currently accounts for 18% of household income, is life going to be happier if it becomes 10% of household income and I gain a third bedroom and garden for a child I am not sure I am able to produce (infertility).

Singapore is crazy for expats who do not earn a high income, the rent makes London look cheap as you guys are excluded from the government housing where 85% of singaporeans live. Singapore is better run though and safe so many people do think its worth it. Better public transport etc.

and my Dh was very enthusiastic about Singapore (knows it well as he visits v regularly) but having heard the work experiences of singaporean colleagues who worked at the branch in singapore, he realises that the work culture would be more challenging there, more stressful and longer hours.

As someone who has lived in both Dubai and Singapore I would recommend Singapore over Dubai, it's not a nice place to live unless you are happy to spend all of your time in a bar or in a mall. If you can make good money Singapore is infinitely better. But I Def do recommend doing the expat thing, I've lived in 4 diff countries and it was overall a great experience. I also met my now husband while living overseas.

I read on here a good bit (in particular the property, work and budgeting areas) as I prefer to be in predominately female spaces regardless of the topic of the conversation. The main downside is of course the unnecessary level of snark that is sometimes experienced 😂

It may also surprise you to know that many single, childless 20 something (which sounds very Jane Austen in a disapproving sort of way...) young people are quite interested in the issues facing families and talk about this a lot amongst themselves. Thanks to the god awful state of the economy and housing in the UK, a lot of people are quite worried about the future, their lives and whether they can actually afford the things they have always assumed they will have. That's my position and actually exactly why I'm interested in hearing from people here. In particular I'm well aware of the cost of living and tax situations for moderately high earners (says 90-130k) who have children in the UK, and that's why I am trying to make considered choices in my life. I also have friends with children directly going through this at the moment, so it is interesting to add to the perspectives and see if I am just getting a particularly negative snapshot.

My apologies if my "strange" presence is a burden to you 😂and I'm quite confused about what the accusation actually is. Just that I'm...strange? If so I guess guilty as charged!

Thank you 😅

Oh that's very interesting, thank you. Yes I've heard people mentioning crime levels in Canada, I always thought of it as a very safe place but definitely has its issues. The high cost of living would put me off, in particular as the market rate in my line of work wouldn't be amazing there

Crime has objectively not got worse over the past 10 years.

And crime levels in London are lower than in many parts of the UK.

No idea what it's like elsewhere in the world. And I suspect you don't know either.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/26/fact-check-has-sadiq-khan-really-overseen-a-surge-in-london

Actually I'll be honest @Flopsythebunny there's something particularly nasty about posting this given the nature of my query and the statement that I am recently single, trying to figure out if I can actually have the family life I want in London or if I am best to start over elsewhere. This is a women only (or at least mainly) space and one originally centred around advice on family matters.

I actually think my post is more appropriate than yours, which seems nothing more than a cheap, snide attempt at bullying, and very much not in keeping with the aim of women supporting women.

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

The article goes mainly into murder etc, I think the crime issue I'm seeing more regularly relates more to petty(ier) level crimes like having your phone stolen, bike stolen, bag seized, burglary and also sexual offences. All of this unfortunately I can attest to being pretty major and regular issues in London. I've also seen firsthand (on quite a few occasions...) just how difficult it is to get any kind of police support on that, it's not just the level of crimes happening but lack of support when they do. I wish that was just an imagined issue in London at the moment but it's really not. There's been some recent stats about how useless the Met is when it comes to burglaries for examples and also some bad stats on sex offences. There was also a report into the Met that rated them inadequate when it came to investigating crimes 😅

In terms of comparing crime rates between countries, I'd be interested in actually looking at the levels but also how it is felt in terms of impact on life. From international friends who have lived in London and in other places (either moving to London or other way around) crime has been a big difference they've mentioned. In terms of it not being normal in many cities around the world to grip your phone super tight from thieves. And also their outrage when they've reported things to police here and been basically told "what do you expect us to do"

Get over yourself.
You posted in Aibu, not Chat, and I say, yes you are
You've already decided that you no longer like living in London, up north isn't good enough for you,
so what's stopping you from booking a ticket to a better place?

I'm not sure why you have felt the need to come onto my thread and be so unnecessarily hostile out of nowhere? I asked a question in AIBU, I didn't ask for someone to come out calling me "strange" and implying I'm some kind of freakish failure for being single in my late 20s. I've not done anything to you, I'm allowed to be here and I don't see why you want to be so horrible to me.

As I have said extensively, living in another part of the UK doesn't work for my job at this stage of my career, plus I have no friends/family there, therefore nothing about moving up north would make sense for me. None of that is saying it is not good enough for me. I've not been going around making personal attacks against people so I really don't understand your attitude.

Oh interesting, thanks for the recommendations! Did you move regularly as an expat and was it intentional, or more just following work opportunities?

That's interesting thank you. Australia seems very variable on work culture, I know some people who have had great experiences but also heard horror stories.

Amsterdam seems expensive but very liveable in terms of transport etc, but I think a lot of people say the tourists can be an issue! Apparently it's very easy for English speakers though.

Housing costs seem to be such an issue in most places, it's such an irritant. One of those things where it's hard to escape when you're young really

@DozensOfRoses I totally get what you mean - the problem with London ( and I love London and son lives there) is that it needs a supply of younger professionals going out 'a lot' to keep it vibrant and the rents and mortgages are now at such a level that people like my son ( average earning 26 year old in IT with a live in girlfriend ) simply have to totally restrict how much they go out - I've also lived in Copenhagen for a few years- so yes I get the thing about lifestyles too- we currently live in Bath

I do have friends all over and I have to be honest there are up and down sides to all kinds of places-Dubai for example gives you hot weather and a blingy lifestyle but can actually be quite boring unless all you want us hanging around very expensive blingy places. My friend was bored rigid and hated the blokes she met who were all money obsessed and often pretty shallow and false, my friend in Singapore feels similar and is fed up even though on surface it looks great. Personally I'm not a fan of Switzerland too - maybe if you already had a ready made family

From looking at your criteria I would be looking at Amsterdam, Paris, Vienna, Madrid, Stockholm and Copenhagen, Toronto and maybe Sydney and Melbourne if you have no particular ties to the UK you want to keep up

If you love buzzy, upbeat and progressive Switzerland is not for you. it’s absolutely beautiful and the quality of public services and infrastructure is amazing, but it is culturally dead. And so frigging sensible it might drive you round the bend. Friends who live there struggle with school hours (short) and childcare (availability of wraparound) but they may be atypical.

how about Stockholm or Copenhagen if you are looking into the longer term? Good housing situation, decent transport, excellent equality for women, nice nature and communal facilities.

Canada is a great country but lots of regional variations - almost like a continent really.

Australia is a very long way away from the UK if you have family here. It’s fine while you’re young and your parents and siblings are also young, much much harder as your parents in particular, age. It’s also quite shockingly racist in parts and very expensive to live in.

New Zealand is like aus on Valium.

Personally I could fancy Germany although lots of friends who live their or commute there tell me things are quite bad there too, dodgy trains and declining standard of living. Whether that’s true more gnenerally I don’t know.

schools in London are excellent. It’s a fantastic place to raise children. They are never bored, grow up surrounded by cultural diversity, can get about independently, have freedom of thought, religion, protections under equality laws etc etc etc.

i wouldn’t move to the Middle East if you paid me. Socially and culturally repressive, hot to the point that malls are your main option for a walk for large parts of the year…

I do think rip off Britain is a thing but personally I still have some faith that the new administration will get to grips with stuff. For a start, they’ve settled the train drivers strike which is fine by me, those people do responsible jobs and deserve to be rewarded for it, and maybe we will have less strike disruption now 🤷‍♀️

Move out of London, which has become an awful place to live. You will find quality of life much better outside our glutted metropolis.
There are lovely places outside London, where the cost of a one-bed flat in London will buy you a sizable house. Places with cultural activities, access to beautiful countryside, and with no commute problems. If you are able to WFH, a move out of London would work. Or you could look for another job - it sounds as if you have portable skills.
I don't know what the NHS is like in London, but my DH was treated in Blackpool hospital and both care, equipment and staff were amazing.

Really interesting, thank you! Yes I completely agree with what you say - we pay so much to live in London because it's so vibrant, but now it's so expensive that we can't afford to go out so it's no longer as vibrant 😂

I love Bath, would probably be where I'd live if I had a family, a good job there and (a lot of) money for a nice property there 😅

Those are really interesting recommendations thank you, I'll look into them. I've heard good things about Copenhagen, but apparently it's not very easy to meet people?