Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

I had a lot of hope in this government, I think maybe they still can do it, I just wish we saw a bit more of a positive vision from them! Settling with the junior doctors was great too. It's just so doom and gloom, they've been handed a bad hand but I want to hear that they at least think they can do something with it. You've made some good points there in favour of London and I agree with all of those. London's diversity and culture is definitely what attracts me to it and what I have enjoyed so much.

Labour, just make me feel some hope 😂

Apparently it's not just me, there's been a big fall in UK consumer confidence. Some are blaming the pre-Budget messaging of "it will get worse" "pain is coming" etc

www.retail-week.com/customer/uk-consumer-confidence-has-taken-a-drastic-fall-in-september/7047103.article

Where to live is of course a very personal decision and will differ for us all.

I earn at the upper end of the range you quote and managed to develop my role into being almost fully remote. I now live in the UK well outside of the SE and have the most amazing standard of living compared with what I could afford in London.

I appreciate you would be moving on your own but assimilating into the local community is nowhere near as hard outside of London as it is in London.

If you want to move to another city abroad then absolutely go for it but don’t totally discount the vast improvement in quality of life you’d achieve if you moved outside of London but stayed in the UK.

Living in Midlands/North on 200k is a totally different ball game compared with doing the same in London particularly as a single person. It’ll also help you accumulate plenty of cash to fund future plans whatever they maybe.

It's definitely something I would consider if I was a few years further ahead in my career and had a partner. WFH doesn't attract me currently as I like meeting as many people as possible at the moment, I think it's one of those things that I would want in 5 years but not now. One option is waiting it out in London a few years and then moving further out, which I guess was always my plan really, but I'm just questioning if it's worth the pain.

I've worked so hard for my job so would be unwilling to move away from that at the moment, it's something I could do outside of London at a senior level but not yet. I see those 10 years ahead of me struggling but making it work, but even just being 10-15 years ahead in terms of house purchasing makes a huge difference to what is possible.

Mmm, there is also a concerted and not very subtle campaign in parts of the print and online media to naysay and discredit the current administration.

Yes, the budget is probably going to be tough but I’ll eat my hat if it isn’t presented as ‘tax on those who can afford to pay more’ and no increased tax on those who can’t, plus fundamental reform of public services like transport (GB rail etc). Fine by me. That’s positivity to me. Just going lalalalaaa it’s all gonna be fine, think positive, big society wangwangwang might sound better but it wouldn’t actually make the country any better.

anyway, by all means spread your wings. I think it’s a common age/ breakpoint to think about your future and where to spend it: nothing wrong with experimenting.

Id def pick somewhere English speaking though because relying on expats is not much fun. Too closed, too un-diverse, and it takes a really long time to get foreign language skills enabling really close friendships with native population. In my experience.

Interesting to hear you've managed to make it work remotely, well done I can't imagine that was easy! I could definitely see myself wanting to do that longer term, I'm not sure how doable it would be at the more junior end. I can imagine you have a really excellent quality of life with that, well worth the occasionally longer commute.

Yes it's the moving on my own that would be the real challenge. It feels a lot scarier to imagine moving alone to somewhere where there isn't a big pool of people in my exact same position. The nice thing about London and similar cities is you fit right in straight away, you have that circle in the same mindset as you.

Utopia? I am not sure where you will find all that.

Yeah, I think that's all very fair. Seeing some reform happen is great and very overdue. I've seen reports that Labour are aware that the negativity might be getting a bit much, hopefully they've just over primed us and everything is actually quite positive! I think it's just been a shock really, I spent so long thinking they'd come in positive and making good change.

And that's a good point, would prefer not to be in a small separate expat community, London is great the way you genuinely mix with so many people. I'll keep that in mind

I know right 😂we'd all live there!

I also don't recognise the London you describe and I say that as someone on probably half your salary, renting and in an allegedly dodgy area.
I've lived in several other countries and always come back to London because no matter its problems, it has the best people and spirit. It is what you make of it. If you only hang out with wealthy young people who want a glam lifestyle then its probably not for you. I see you'd love to live in some authoritarian city state built with slave labour, well go for it but I mean what a superficial life to chase.

Since you seem to find the UK such a shit place to live then you should leave. The grass isn’t always greener though.

My first move was from America (where I grew up) to Dubai after uni. The job market there was good and I had family there so if seemed like a relatively safe bet and I did start a good career there. I met my now husband a few months after moving there and we lived there together for a few years before moving to Singapore. He had a job when we moved to Singapore but I didn't and it did take some time to get one. After Singapore we moved to do a other stint in dubai again and then, a few years later we moved to London (he's British) as we wanted to start putting roots down somewhere instead of always moving. We looked for work opportunities when we decided we wanted to move though and then moved it wasn't the other way around. If I'm honest, the only move I regret is the UK and wish we had chosen somewhere else in Europe, but we are still young, without kids so that could easily still be in the cards.

Whatever you choose good luck and hope it all works out. I do think though that should you choose to leave the UK you will not regret the experience.

The only reason we left Singapore was BC it was incredibly expensive and it didn't seem like it could be a long term thing, as expats you have to make a shocking amount of money and I'm not sure you can even easily get a house. But if you're young and unattached and can make good money, for a few years, Singapore is a great experience and you have so many countries on your doorstep, we probably traveled to 30 diff countries while we were there. Dubai was just not for me, it's a soulless place full of very superficial and dull people and it just never felt like it could be home, if that makes sense. I did however meet the love of my life there and adopted the feline love of my life while there so if was definitely worth it in the end.

Just move out of London! I don't see the point in living somewhere you don't like. London is ridiculously expensive. Great to visit but as you're discovering, not a great place to live.

Have you been to other cities in the UK? You do know that they're not like London don't you? You're missing out on all kinds of experiences if you just think London = UK.

@DozensOfRoses it's a bit unrealistic to be expecting the new gvt to suddenly ignite a massively forward thinking vibe instantly when their first 3 weeks were spent dealing with a load of ignorant morons out there causing aggro, and since then it's been the summer break and they are only just back- they also to be frank are having to attempt make a silk purse out of a sows ear given the Tory's had let things go to rot as spent all the money on trying to shore up a Brexit that was utterly pointless and trying to retain votes by playing Reform at their own games with Rwanda etc - to be frank nothing so far has changed --so if you are fed up now you were certainly fed up under the Tory's- so it's a bit disingenuous to keep mentioning the new gvt and might make others question how genuine you are or if it's a 'politically' motivated post - as there are a lot of them around- all being a bit more 'subtle' about things.

I think you are after Utopia OP - personally I myself loved Scandinavia but it isn't perfect weather and whilst lifestyle is good in my opinion it's not a 'blingy, showy' kind of place - none of the kind of places you are talking about have cheap and good housing either- Sweden and Copenhagen I would say you got lots of choice and lovely housing if you rented - but not particularly cheap although in all fairness we had a 4 bed well renovated detached 'villa' with a huge basement for price of maybe a 2 to 3 bed rented flat in London zone 3 - maybe your friends who seem to be having a better lifestyle are sharing with partners or living further out or have family money propping them up or indeed earn more than you do -

I know a singaporean lady living in London ( has malaysian spouse who grew up in singapore so would be easy to get PR) who is frustrated about the same COL issues and tax issues as OP (plus has children) and feels she has no community. But she can't move back to singapore cos she has a mortgaged 3 bed house in hampstead garden suburb and she would barely be able to afford a good condo in singapore even with lower taxes. As for hdb who gives up a house in hampstead garden suburb for government housing. And she probably has more equity than OP.

I only own a small flat but other singaporeans tell me that it would be insane to give up a london flat for hdb (though obviously it is better to own hdb than rent in London and most people my age rent in London), and condos are actually much more expensive than property in London even when you account for the higher nett income

I would defend the Singapore government hdb scheme which allows 89% of singaporeans to own property/have a secure home to my last breath but at the same time it's not great for overseas singaporeans with foreign spouses and who own overseas property as we effectively get treated like expats in our own country and the math doesn't work..

So I think it wouldn't be great for people like OP who are frustrated by London costs.

Thanks, that's helpful!

On the politics - definitely not a pro Tory anti Labour post, I'm quite starkly the opposite to be honest. I've spent the last 3 or 4 years just getting through it gritting my teeth saying they'll be gone soon, I think I just put so much hope onto the new government that it's probably natural I feel disappointment. I'm quite depressed at the state the tories left things, 6 months ago I was all "change!" and now I think I'm questioning whether they can even turn things around. Apparently I'm not alone in feeling this way, I think the pre-Budget messaging might be a bit of overkill 😂I did like their big planning announcements the other day, I think so much of the problem in the UK in terms of quality of life is housing so that is a real positive if they can make it work.

On the people abroad with better lifestyles - a lot is housing costs to be honest, they're usually paying a small fraction of what I am and living in much nicer homes. Unfortunately it's not just higher incomes it's a matter of how far they go. That's what is giving me pause for thought with London, is it just a rat race I can never win

You definitely need to try living somewhere else, OP, even if it’s only a couple of years. Sometimes we need to go elsewhere to discover what we really want- even if the result is that we realize that we like our original location after all!

Singapore is such an interesting place, thanks for this that's so interesting. Definitely would love to travel there but I think I would discount it for living as I think for expats there you have to have REALLY made it to get by. As you said great protections for local population but also has consequences.

One thing that's great about Singapore is they intentionally mix housing together and don't allow segregation, the government there are so planned and really consider social impact of things. So odd how it gets parodied as low regulation sometimes when actually it's the opposite, it works so well because of an excellent administration

If it's only about the cost then yes, Singapore is more expensive for sure. But from what I gathered about the OP, she is frustrated with London and the benefits no longer outweigh the cost. I would never recommend Singapore as a long term solution, we left BC it wasn't, however if you're young, unattached, make good money and are looking for a few years of great experiences, then Singapore is ideal. It also has a large expat population with people doing exactly the same thing so making friends is incredibly easy and everyone is always up for a good time. It was one of the best experiences of my life hence why I recommended it.

Yes I think I'm leaning towards that! Being abroad for a few years could also mean I can get myself set up financially and hopefully return to London to see the UK improved and public services in a good place. There's so much I love about it too, might need some distance to appreciate what makes it different.

Thank you, that was a very useful post and has helped me clarify some thinking!

I wonder if I could try Singapore for some kind of secondment, that sounds amazing! Not sure I could work it make financially for anything longer but it sounds like a lot of fun. As you can probably tell, I am torn between sorting out the finances sensibly vs finding somewhere a lot of fun 😂if the golden place which has both exists, let me know...

Honestly, I would say you have the rest of your life to work out the finances, esp since it sounds like you have a good job and career, so it will only go up from here. Now is the time to have the experiences, while you're still free and unattached.

Capital world class cities like London tend to be a collection of the aspirational new immigrants, inheritors (including people who can live rent free with family plus those with gifts) /people with generational wealth, people who bought at the right time (usually old people), very rich people, people with high incomes.

I once read something on mumsnet that went something like this , those who can afford to be parents in London fall into these categories

1. The highfliers- very high income peoppe aka 6 figures in early 20s, made v shrewd investments that paid off etc
2. Inheritors , people who get gifted lots of money for a first home like my friend whose parents bought him a 2 bed house and only ask for £300 in 'loan repayments' plus those who get gifted Kensington apartments
3. The planners- people who live for a long time in flatshares then buy their homes, carefully save for maternity leave, childcare, tend to have good incomes etc
4. Those supported by family- free childcare and also deposits (from parents downsizing) and rent free living in their 20s.
5. Those on benefits
6. People who struggle and get into debt.

This also applies to people who aren't parents but who want to live long term in London. Often people fall into several categories- they can come from rich families who gift them deposits or whole homes and also be high fliers.

However, what helps me not fall out of love with London is knowing my limits- I am not a high flier nor did I get 100k as a gift to buy a home. I am a planner who did benefit from some family help aka 3 years of rent free living when I married a londoner but will probably not get free childcare (if I have a child) so I will live in a flat for the foreseeable future due to the need to budget for childcare. And if I don't have a child I wouldn't really need more space.

Tbh my DH's mum lived in a tiny 3 bed house with 4 children and also she had 3 kids in a 1 bed flat so such struggles are not confined to our generation (if anything our flat is larger than hers at the same age and we had less family help).

You certainly won't find it cheaper in Dubai. The days of good packages are long gone.