Would you stay in the UK if you were me?

[DozensOfRoses]

Looking for honest thoughts: should I stay in the UK, and if you were in my shoes what would you do? I'm late 20s, recently single and in a very decent professional career.

I've been a Londoner for a decade and consider it home, however I struggle to recognise the place I fell in love with. I feel like I work nonstop for a low quality of life and I'm not sure I can see any perks anymore. It just seems everything is in terminal decline here. I thought I would feel some hope with the new government but honestly after the last month it just feels a bit like they've given up too?

The quality of housing and transport is just so bad, it makes everything a pain on a daily basis. I'm lucky to own my own (tiny, mortgaged) one bed apartment within 45 minute commute, the kind of place I'm thrilled to have but anybody outside of London would consider appropriate for a student, not a highly paid professional. I feel like I'd lose the will to live if I had to commute any further, given the cost and regular disruption to commuter services.

I feel like I'm being robbed by utility companies (when I compare what I pay to anyone I know overseas, they are shocked). I can't see anything I get in return for my taxes (work pays for private health insurance and I've given up even trying the NHS doctors). I don't feel safe on the streets of London anymore, this might in part be due to getting older but I've seen so much crime recently and very little interest in doing anything about it. I want to have a family in the next few years but childcare here is shocking and I'm not sure I would be happy with the quality of non fee paying schools in many areas.

When I visit friends abroad I am stunned by the quality of life they have and I feel almost...gaslit? into my low expectations after 10 years in London.

I'm originally from another English-speaking western country and in terms of visas in a very privileged position (would be highly mobile). I work in a very internationalised professional service (think consulting, banking, trading or corporate law) where I can move around a year from now to a role earning from £100-200k (and which would pay the same or more abroad). Obviously moving would be a pain and I would be starting over in terms of my life, but I'm not sure I see a future here anymore. I think the last few years I have been waiting it out to see if things will get better but I'm losing hope.

Honestly: what would you do in my position? Can anyone see things getting better? And those who have decided to make the move, how has it gone?

Where are you from OP (apologies if I've missed it!)

I think your disillusionment with London is really normal at your age. You're looking ahead to having a family, progressing your career and you can't see how that fits in with your current lifestyle. I think wherever you lived right now you would be reassessing. However I live in a commuter town 20 miles outside of London and it is TOTALLY different from living in London. The place is full of people your age and older who are moving out for the schools, greenery and better quality of life. I'm a londoner, I grew up there, and wouldn't want to bring my children up there.

If I had to relocate I would move to Canada but I couldn't practically do that now with an ageing parent.

Go and do not look back. Take the awesome memories from London but you're right, if you have the freedom to go overseas, do it. Probably quite a few of us have visited friends abroad and also been gobsmacked at the difference in quality of life.

You've bought yourself the option by buying property, working hard, being successful, now move back because it's ok when you're single but if you end up meeting someone, settling down, having kids, then you will likely not be able to have this chance again.

Tempted to know where you would go 😀

Actually Copenhagen might be the best choice especially if you're hoping to find a husband and have a family. You really can't beat it.

I’m sad to say that the rape figures are just as bad for the rest of the UK. It’s shocking.

If you want more buzz than London I’d go for Paris or New York. I know what you mean about things seeming a bit depressed here- it’s like the whole country is run down. Combination of lack of inward investment due to Brexit and lack of government spending on infrastructure and other basics.

I've lived and worked in 4 different countries. Currently back in London and getting the itch again. Now sounds like the perfect time to give it a shot.

If you're on FB, they are a ton of 'Americans in Paris' or 'Brits in the Netherlands' type groups. Worth joining and lurking to get an expat view of life in a new country.

'Most of the people I know with good lifestyles in such places are dual income or bought years ago or have 'family money' or inheritances.'

We have/had family in Israel, Netherlands, America, Singapore, Germany and London so can give a rough overview.

In all the countries the people who have bought property by their 30s all fall into the following categories:

Dual income London couple working in financial services who enjoyed rent free living at family home in their 20s- us

Plastic surgeon /business manager couple in Florida

dual income couple in bavaria who bought a house divided into 2 flats with grandma; grandma will pass second flat to them when she passes on and they live in the other flat.

BIL's cousins who got loans from parents and years of rent free living which enabled them to buy apartments in Israel.

My cousins work in lots of different industries but all got on the property ladder with the government housing scheme, a few upgraded to private condos when they were more established in their careers and earning very well. My sister may possibly buy a condo as a FTB but she and her fiancee are doctors (like me had years of rent free living at home).

The rest who just have ordinary jobs or are not dual income can't buy their property and have the same issues that many Brits have. tbh if you look at the profile of all these people (except for the singaporeans who bought using the government housing scheme), they would be able to buy in London too.

Why not move, OP - sounds like you're in a great position to do it and have nothing to lose.

I'm about a decade older than you and have similar feelings about London and indeed the UK. It is a very low wage country with high cost of living. I ended up moving out to Z3 and having kids , which is the extreme example for sure.

At your age, definitely give somewhere new a try. I don't love the US, but NY would be worth a try - if you move with a EU company the working expectations can be a little more friendly and it is one of the only other cities that has the buzz both work-wise and culturally.

Australia is great, Melbourne or Sydney, but it is very far and you are a bit out of the way - it does feel a bit regional, as HK and Singapore can be bigger plays in that area depending on industry. They are also great to live it, but you'd probably have a very expat lifestyle.

The European cities can be a bit boring (Switzerland) or standoffish to newcomers (Scandinavia), but do have a better quality of life I think.

I would move abroad.

This is how I can tell you are not a Londoner born and brought up as large parts of London were always run down, edgy and ordinary for the 70s, 80s 90s, the last 20 years was effectively when it became a disneyfied, overpriced place to live that seemingly is inhabited by people who are very rich or poor (the bits that are proper London).

@Ixon yep- it's got a lot to like- great if you want a good work life balance and excellent affordable childcare - and a lot of the younger men seemed to have a very healthy attitude to family. I do miss a lot of aspects - beach on the doorstep, great airport, beautiful parks and forests close by, very clean and ordered and stuff worked - we came back partly due to elderly parent and partly due to work reasons as we were there during and just post covid it became hard to come back to UK on a very regular basis- flights halved and cost doubled and that had always been 'in the plan' - if we had still been there we would have moved to Stockholm which was our number one choice originally but we couldn't view houses as it was 'during covid' and huge restrictions on flights in - had most of the advantages of Copenhagen but was quite a bit cheaper.

Move

@floral2027 I totally agree- it's easy to see people having these great lifestyles and thinking it's about 'that country' - whereas it's often about their personal circumstances and a bit of luck along the way

I know a 'mature' single lady who does very little work and flits around Europe- lovely lifestyle - she is lucky enough to have both an EU and British passport but can have this lifestyle due to seriously wealthy mother and an allowance that's more than most people's salary , a ton of ongoing income from the other deceased parent and friends she stays with all over the shop.

Most places these days of the kind of lifestyle the OP is looking for are all expensive and take 1 very big income indeed or very decent dual incomes or significant cash in the bank

London is expensive but it's by no means an outlier- start looking online at rentals OP in places like Paris and New York or Sydney and you will get the drift

On another angle we have lots of younger lawyers and bankers and management consultants living here in Bath - some do a Monday to Friday let up in London and have homes here too - some do 2 days in London and just do 1 overnighter a week - perfectly possible here to buy a lovely big home for £600k not peanuts I know but lifestyle is pretty good -and lots of folk make and female to meet like yourself and just get those sunny holidays in regularly!!!

For the most part the higher wages aren't enough to cover the additional housing costs associated with being in/around London, unless you're very well paid. There are lots of threads on here with people on smaller salaries than those in the south east but with more disposable income and choices.

I wouldn't personally choose to live in London, with the associated lifestyle compromises, unless the benefits justified it. In your case it doesn't sound like they do. It also doesn't sound like a move to somewhere else in the UK for a better quality of life is going to get you what you want either. So if I were you, I doubt I'd hang around.

Thanks that's very helpful. Yes a better quality of life really appeals, the attractions of London just no longer seem worth the pain of being here. When I compare the (after tax and expenses like housing and bills) salary I would have in many other places, I have to question whether it's worth paying £10ks a year to be here and have worse services. I'm not sure I see it getting better anytime soon

@floral2027 you need to look at all the " fees" you have to pay in Dubai - it's tax in another form. No income tax per se but cost of living is high eg utilities, rent etc.

Yes definitely agree on all those attractions of London, many of which are why I planned to live here permanently. It's really a question of whether it's possible to have the finances to actually enjoy any of those at my position in life. It just feel unsustainable

So you've written off the government before they've even done their first budget? Seems a little rash

I think the new government have some potential but I've been pretty amazed by the lack of ambition really, the (what people refer to as) "Treasury-brain" austerity-light approach the last few weeks. It's not the radically transformative, let's get Britain modernising approach I was hoping for and it's making me lose hope that things will be substantially different 5 years from now. I'm feeling that I'm only still here due to sunk cost fallacy and that waiting another 5 years could make it too late to do anything about it.

I'm not opposed to moving somewhere where I don't know anybody at all, it's just that as I don't have any particular link to the UK beyond friendships there is no point moving to somewhere I'd be less happy in the UK as a compromise location. I'd sooner rip things up again and go for a better fit further afield.

That's really interesting you say that @Crushed23 : it's a sentiment I am hearing a lot from London professionals and very much how I am feeling. Can I ask more about your situation and where are you thinking of going?

Yeah I think financial success in London is often very situational, very based on whether you have family here, how long they have been here, if you bought at the right time. There are a lot of older people in London who lived very modest lives, bought at the right time and now (on paper at least in terms of property) have a level of wealth beyond what uber successful young professionals can aspire to today. I think a lot of people look at young London professionals and think "world's tiniest violin", which is fair enough but actually we're not getting out a lot compared to what we put in.

I think it is to do with when you bought. We did a while ago and it's just the nature of the area and how it changes that I have elderly widowed people living in houses that only City or younger people with help can buy

The hard part is finding somewhere that meets what you want without the same. Sydney is incredibly expensive, possibly more so than London for housing

I spent 10 years (my 20s) overseas and just moved to London. I definitely hear what you're saying, and if I were single I'd have stayed abroad. It's undeniable that the quality of life was better - I earned half my current salary and had better quality housing, public services and more disposable income in each of the 4 European capitals I lived in!

My partner and I are British and they wanted to be closer to family and in a familiar culture, also the UK is better for my profession so those factors swung it for us. We will likely move to another UK city or large town in the next few years, either staying commutable to London or up north where we have a lot of friends/some family, as we don't work from the office every day.

Don't underestimate how hard life abroad can be - you lose some ties back home, however hard you try not to, and in international cities you'll often have international friends which means they often leave. In your situation, I'd try it for a few years and then re-evaluate. If you can earn £100k+ it sounds like you could soon be on track for a high quality of life even in London. If you absolutely love London for the city life though, be aware that not many other cities match it for culture, the international vibe and buzz (not nightlife, which is terrible here!), but you'll find different pros and cons anywhere. Also be aware that if you sell your place it can be very hard to move back - I moved back at a time which meant I lost out financially quite a lot due to currency fluctuations.

You mention about starting a family too. That's hard in a foreign country, though many people manage great and it's easier if you meet a partner who's from the place you live. Do you have parents/siblings who you want to be part of your child's life - where do they live?

Did the same as you a few years ago when I was 30, don't regret it for a second. When I look back now, almost none of my friends are still in London. Some in villages around Bristol, a couple in the commuter belt, one moved to a small village in Oxfordshire. As PP have said, it's the absolutely classic age to reassess London life.

I'm in Abu Dhabi and love it, but if you're single you'd probably be spending your weekends in Dubai as AD is a much more family-orientated place and you'd more easily meet someone in Dubai.

There are plenty of 'normal' people if you step away from Instagram. There's lots to do other than malls if you care to look (in the last two weeks Ive been to a classical music concert, a lecture at a university open to the public, an improv show and an art exhibition). When the weather cools off there's lots of hiking, fishing, camping and plenty of team sports to join.

I'm not saying it's the place for you, but when people dismiss the UAE as 'only malls' it shows either that they've never lived here, lived here a long time ago or didn't try very hard to break out of the 'typical British expat' scene when they did!

Good luck with whatever you decide, but it sounds like you should definitely go somewhere!

Have you established whether there are any opportunities for international secondments with your current employer?

Take a year out, travel or move to another country.
Don't sell your property, rent it out or leave it be with family checking on it.
Ask your current employer if you can take a years Career break.

Sorted ✔️