To think men should understand how unsafe women feel?

[Fraudornot]

So on a works night out and had to get home - I feel unsafe wandering around our large city centre at night on my own to get home. Men who I consider to be fairly aware don’t even think of this as an issue - how to ensure female employees feel safe to get home. What are others experience of this? I’m keen to know what the norm is and if we should all be aware of how women feel getting home after a night out in a city centre. Or should it just be up to us to make sure we can get a taxi. I feel there might well be a pile on about sort yourself out don’t rely on men. But surely we should all ensure the safety of the whole group.

It always bothers me that the ones most upset by terms like "being a Karen" for trying to silence women are the same ones who will happily call someone a "cool wife" or handmaiden to try and shut down other women who's view they don't agree with

But in feminist terms, a handmaiden is someone who serves and upholds the patriarchy.

Yes, finally we agree it's used as a childish insult towards other women, who some feminists hate because they can't control them.

Which makes them no better than the men who insult women because they hate that they can't control them.

I think historically feminism meant a campaign for women’s equality of opportunity. Certainly my mother was a proud feminist and fought hard for women to get equal rights to manage their own finances, bodily autonomy, run a business etc. This is the school of feminism that everyone who isn’t actually sexist buys into.

The idea that women weren’t brave and couldn’t make arrangements to get themselves home just the same ans any man is an anathema to that school, as many posters have pointed out.

Then there is the new school of thought where thinking of yourself as part of an oppressed group is actually a positive, and should be hailed as somehow brave and impressive, and somehow should confer you additional rights, especially from the ‘oppressor’ class, even if the individual has in no way oppressed you.

If you subscribe to the above, of course the men should make sure women get home safely as they are oppressors and should be atoning for being a part of that class.

I am a feminist (or ally, if you prefer) according to equality of opportunity for all. And virtually all of my female friends fall into the same category. They just would have no truck with being treated as fragile flowers and enjoy being proud, independent and successful on their own terms.

But we are all older, on the cusp of being ‘boomers’, and I do think it is, at least somewhat, a generational thing.

So you support men and the patriarchy and uphold it by defending men and their actions

But you think I'm controlling because I've told you you need to do better and stop supporting a group that oppresses your own gender?!

Ok.

You're trying to control women and tell them how to think. Which is exactly what problematic men do.

We're trying to point out men have something fear too (nobody is defending violent men, at least not on this thread, FFS)

I support no-one who tries to manipulate and control other people, and then resort to childish insults when they can't quite manage it.

Men and women who do this are exactly the same as each other.

And I was pointing out women do have something to fear as well and do generally through life, have to be more aware and alert in many situations that a man wouldn't.

Not once have I said that men don't have to be worried but I certainly won't accept that woman don't worry or need to take precautions.

I also can't get it straight in my head that telling a woman they are upholding the patriarchy and supporting the oppression of women is offensive and controlling to women but that calling them wallflowers, calling them timid, laughing at the idea that women need to protect themselves a bit more than men do and laughing at someone saying that some women fear men is acceptable?!

Patriarchy is that ingrained that it's often missed and is accepted as normal. It's stuff that you realise after an experience or hearing about someone else's experience that makes you think hang on a sec and gets you thinking.

As soon as you start challenging this, your pushed back into the box firstly.by other women, then eventually men join in. Your given all the negative labels and hushed up

But there's posts on here desperately trying to make safety a man's issue and something that doesn't affect women and we all know, deep down, that's not right.

I won't always get it right, I might use the wrong language or words and it's a learning curve but I'm definitely not getting back into my box and keeping quiet because I've pointed out how another womans words are damaging another woman and helping maintain the oppression

No no no. I'm not having this.
It's my responsibility to make sure I have sensible plans for getting home. I just don't have the mental heqd space to take on the worry of how all my colleagues are getting home too. People leave work events at different times and drink alcohol differently . This is absolutely something that falls under personal responsibility. .

I'm not entirely that your comment as a man, is helpful.

Then there is the new school of thought where thinking of yourself as part of an oppressed group is actually a positive, and should be hailed as somehow brave and impressive, and somehow should confer you additional rights, especially from the ‘oppressor’ class, even if the individual has in no way oppressed you

It's coming across rather oppressive, ironically despite you trying to imply that women aren't oppressed by men.

Not only that, I wouldn't consider you an ally either given some of your mysoginistic replies on other threads and your ability to turn nasty towards women on here.

You won't get back in your box but you expect us to because you're perceiving our words to be something which they aren't.

Saying that we don't need men to look after us isn't supporting the patriarchy. Saying we aren't delicate wallflowers who need big strong men to protect us isn't demeaning women (no one had called women wallflowers, they've said women AREN'T)

Saying men need to be as careful as women isn't supporting the patriarchy

You still haven't said what extra precautious "all" women take that men don't btw

@YellowphantGrey ,

I was quite hurt by some of your previous comments but, judging from this thread, I can see you are not sexist or selective in your aggressive posts at all!

There is only one type of person who upsets you more than a man, a woman who has the temerity to disagree with you.

Your delightful use of the word handmaid to describe women who disagree with you, I suspect, comes from the Margaret Atwood book. This should be a very problematic word in many senses to describe other women on this thread, but you seem happy to use it freely.

So, honestly, your opinion of me, or of my perspectives, bothers me less than the drops of rain currently falling in my garden.

Don't be so disingenuous. Your problematic on a lot of threads towards women and those that point it out are then verbally abused by you.

The irony
🤣

Saying that we don't need men to look after us isn't supporting the patriarchy. Saying we aren't delicate wallflowers who need big strong men to protect us isn't demeaning women (no one had called women wallflowers, they've said women AREN'T) but I've said I don't need a man to look after me? Ive said its my repsonsibility to get myself home safely?

What IS supporting the patriarchy are the comments on here that imply that women don't have anything to fear. The comments that are berating any woman that feels fear if they are in a vulnerable position because these are the attitudes and opinions of many many men that buy into the notion that women are problematic and reactive towards men.

Women do have to exercise more caution around men than men do around men. By insisting they don't, upholds the patriarchy as men don't consider themselves a danger or a risk, yet they are. To women and to each other.

I see men posting their strava running routes over social media, it's always the same route, I see men walking down roads at night and not bothered by someone else walking behind or near them, I see men stumbling into taxis without a second thought.

I don't know know any women that do that because we are cautioned not to.

If I'm walking in the dark, I'm alert, I cross the road if someone is behind me, I keep my keys in my hand. I share my location if I get in a taxi alone, I won't just hail a cab and get into it, I pre book one with a cab firm

I don't know any men that do that.

You might not do any of that and think it's bollocks, that's fine, but saying your not a wallflower because you don't, implies other women are if they do and this also supports the patriarchy that have the opinion women overreact.

If I or any other woman gets attacked on anyway, the womans actions are questioned before the man's. Why were you walking there? Why were you out alone? Etc etc.

It's why women choose the bear

Don't be quick to defend him. He is super nasty to many women on here and extremely sexist to boot.

@YellowphantGrey ,

‘It's why women choose the bear’

Except ‘women’ don’t choose the bear!

You really like this phrase, you have used it on at least two threads, but it just isn’t true.

Only really thick and sexist women would risk an interaction with a random bear rather than an interaction with a random man. It shows an alarming lack of knowledge about both statistics and zoology.

And, yes, it is pretty offensive to both men and women.

40 bear attacks per year world wide.

Well...

@NowImNotDoingIt ,

‘40 bear attacks per year world wide.

Well...’

You are mixing up cause and effect. It is precisely because people avoid bears that there are only 40 bear attacks.

People don’t ‘choose the bear’, they avoid them as much as possible, and luckily most bears avoid people too.

You're not exactly pleasant yourself

I see men posting their strava running routes over social media, it's always the same route, I see men walking down roads at night and not bothered by someone else walking behind or near them, I see men stumbling into taxis without a second thought.I don't know know any women that do that because we are cautioned not to.

I've seen women post their strava routes. I've seen, and I am, a woman walking down the road at night without carrying my keys and running away, I've seen drunk women getting into random taxis (not that there are many taxis now that you can get without booking and EVERYONE is cautioned about unlicensed taxis)

Everyone walking at ANY TIME should be alert.

You're still not making any point about what ALL women do that's deeply ingrained in us

And YOU are reading "I'm not scared, stop saying All women are" as saying women having nothing to fear

This. You're actually better off if they don't help you get home

I post my Strava routes. No one has ever told me not to. And I would tell them to sod off if they did.

The phrase women choose the bear isn't to do with literal bear attacks

I appreciate the effort you've gone to to Google bear attacks though

This.

YABVU OP, as you admitted on P1 and even allured to in your OP.

I mean, if we were relying on male colleagues, how would you manage if you worked on an all female team ?

Are you expecting your male colleagues to be responsible for the female bar staff and waiting staff as well ? Or do you concede they are able to make their own arrangements ?

I would feel I had failed in my parenting if either of my dds said they could only go out if their colleagues made sure they got home safely. Surely we should equip our dds to be able to make their own arrangements ?

Pot, kettle, handmaiden...