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To not understand the obsession with ‘doodle’ breeds

779 replies

CherryValley5 · 11/09/2024 21:26

Eg: labradoodles, cockapoos etc.

They are absolutely everywhere! Why are people actively seeking out and paying pedigree prices for dogs that are effectively mongrels? Behavioural problems are all too common, not to mention hereditary health issues due to poor and unethical breeding - I am a dog owner and the vast majority of doodles, ‘poo’ breeds etc that I meet are incredibly hyperactive, with owners who have no clue how to deal with them. Obviously there are exceptions, some are lovely but as a rule of thumb they’re dogs that I tend to cross the street to get mine away from.

The breeder who created the labradoodle calls it his ‘life’s regret’ - that speaks volumes in my opinion!

OP posts:
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CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 14:59

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 14:41

I fully understand that and I feel exactly the same. But those problems are not limited to purebred dogs in any case.

I was responding to a specific post though...

Oh I know, I didn't think you were aiming it at me! I was just saying that personally, apart from the dogs I've mentioned, I really don't have an opinion on who owns what and why/how much it cost/it's size etc etc.

Ylvamoon · 14/09/2024 15:01

SkiingIsHeaven · 14/09/2024 14:22

This again. Just read the other millions of threads written by the other self righteous pedigree dog snobs. Bore off.

The thing is though, to date l have owned 5 pedigree dogs of the same breed. All had similar temperament , coat and overall looks. Obviously individual dogs have their own personality.

Granted I only own one cockapoo, but I have met and worked with a fair few.... they are all different in temperament, coat type and overall looks. Some favour the Poodle, while others are more on the Coker Spaniel side.

The consistency is missing, I would very much like to see a breed standard for a cookerpoo. Something that tells you what you are getting beyond the cute teddy bear looks...

WiddlinDiddlin · 14/09/2024 15:09

Please don't perpetuate the idea that any breed or breed mix is spectacularly good with ND kids! @F0urt33n thats a really dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Some dogs will be great with some ND kids, regardless of breed. Some absolutely will not with others.

I've seen the results of this particular myth and it is heartbreaking, with parents having to rehome a dog the kid absolutely desperately wants to keep, but can't because the dog absolutely cannot handle some of the issues the kid has - like meltdowns, or grabbing and squeezing.

I've seen dogs having to, expected to, tolerate some awful, violent behaviour from children who can't control themselves, and parents shocked to discover this isn't reasonable and is liable to end up in someone being bitten if it continues.

There are no guarantees with dogs though - and a crossbreed is a bigger gamble than a pedigree for a variety of reasons. Just because you and a small handful of people you know got lucky, doesn't mean this is safe to recommend!

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:11

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 14:59

Oh I know, I didn't think you were aiming it at me! I was just saying that personally, apart from the dogs I've mentioned, I really don't have an opinion on who owns what and why/how much it cost/it's size etc etc.

No. I don't either. I take each dog I meet as an individual; just like I do with people.
My dogs have all been the same breed that I had since I was a kid but it's for specific reasons of temperament (they are my emotional support) and absolutely not for prestige. But there is bias both ways regarding dogs and it does hurt to be accused of snobbery just because my girl is purebred... My priority is that she's healthy and happy and loved, it's not about how pretty she is or how many champions are on her pedigree - that doesn't come into it for me. She's just my best pal.

cookiebee · 14/09/2024 15:15

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 14:12

But isn't it judgemental to talk about "expensive pure bred dogs with daft birth names..."? How is it only hypocrisy for pedigree owners to pass judgement on crossbreeds but doodle owners have free rein to ridicule purebred dogs?
Sorry but being a judgemental hypocrite goes both ways.

Because this whole thread was started by someone who champions pure breeds but encourages the slagging off of doodle and poo owners, as we would say as kids ‘they started it!’ We are just retaliating to a very unnecessary and mean spirited thread!

Fineporcupine · 14/09/2024 15:22

Absolutely not a fan of them, most I've come across bark, have no manners, jump up at you, and are either over friendly with no recall or snappy.

The idea they are hypoallergenic is actually not true, some don't shed, some do, some are more flat coated. Just not my cup of tea as a dog owner. Obviously you'll get the few who are nice well behaved dog's, but even at puppy training it was the doodle mixes causing a nuisance

F0urt33n · 14/09/2024 15:23

WiddlinDiddlin · 14/09/2024 15:09

Please don't perpetuate the idea that any breed or breed mix is spectacularly good with ND kids! @F0urt33n thats a really dangerous and stupid thing to do.

Some dogs will be great with some ND kids, regardless of breed. Some absolutely will not with others.

I've seen the results of this particular myth and it is heartbreaking, with parents having to rehome a dog the kid absolutely desperately wants to keep, but can't because the dog absolutely cannot handle some of the issues the kid has - like meltdowns, or grabbing and squeezing.

I've seen dogs having to, expected to, tolerate some awful, violent behaviour from children who can't control themselves, and parents shocked to discover this isn't reasonable and is liable to end up in someone being bitten if it continues.

There are no guarantees with dogs though - and a crossbreed is a bigger gamble than a pedigree for a variety of reasons. Just because you and a small handful of people you know got lucky, doesn't mean this is safe to recommend!

Simply observing, did not say they were “ “spectacularly good”.It’s not a small handful
either and they seem to be popular as therapy dogs in schools.

ND varies and it’s well documented how beneficial dogs can be. Parents are capable of using common sense and very few would subject a dog to violence which would be a matter for the RSPCA ND or not.

Pretty obvious that after looking a breeds that are a better match for your family you’d look at individual characteristics. Some breeds are recommended more that others whether you like it or not

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:30

cookiebee · 14/09/2024 15:15

Because this whole thread was started by someone who champions pure breeds but encourages the slagging off of doodle and poo owners, as we would say as kids ‘they started it!’ We are just retaliating to a very unnecessary and mean spirited thread!

Point taken. I guess it was obvious from the start that it was going to be a controversial thread. FWIW I have no bias; I know a couple of doodles and they're lovely, but my dog is purebred and sometimes the accusations of snobbery hurt...

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 15:33

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:11

No. I don't either. I take each dog I meet as an individual; just like I do with people.
My dogs have all been the same breed that I had since I was a kid but it's for specific reasons of temperament (they are my emotional support) and absolutely not for prestige. But there is bias both ways regarding dogs and it does hurt to be accused of snobbery just because my girl is purebred... My priority is that she's healthy and happy and loved, it's not about how pretty she is or how many champions are on her pedigree - that doesn't come into it for me. She's just my best pal.

I honestly don't think most mixed breed owners have any snobbery towards pedigrees. I think sometimes it's a defence mechanism as we are constantly told that we don't own a "proper" breed. I've never seen someone asking on here about a particular pedigree and someone jumping in and telling them they should steer clear and get a cross breed instead. It happens time and time again the other way round though.

My childhood dog was a CKC and I would have loved to have another, but so many seem to have such short lives now due to heart conditions, I couldn't risk it.

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 15:35

Fineporcupine · 14/09/2024 15:22

Absolutely not a fan of them, most I've come across bark, have no manners, jump up at you, and are either over friendly with no recall or snappy.

The idea they are hypoallergenic is actually not true, some don't shed, some do, some are more flat coated. Just not my cup of tea as a dog owner. Obviously you'll get the few who are nice well behaved dog's, but even at puppy training it was the doodle mixes causing a nuisance

If you get a doodle from a decent breeder you'll know if they're likely to shed. There's DNA testing available.

Fineporcupine · 14/09/2024 15:41

The thing is most of them aren't from a decent breeder, as people don't want to pay the price tag. I'm not against any mixed breed, had one growing up, It's more the personality of them, or the owners who let them get away with bad behaviour because they think it's cute.

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:43

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 15:33

I honestly don't think most mixed breed owners have any snobbery towards pedigrees. I think sometimes it's a defence mechanism as we are constantly told that we don't own a "proper" breed. I've never seen someone asking on here about a particular pedigree and someone jumping in and telling them they should steer clear and get a cross breed instead. It happens time and time again the other way round though.

My childhood dog was a CKC and I would have loved to have another, but so many seem to have such short lives now due to heart conditions, I couldn't risk it.

I've been told by three people - two of them family members - that I should have adopted a rescue mongrel instead of going to a breeder for my pup, even though they know I've had the same breed for 45 years. I have also seen countless "Adopt Don't Shop" comments on MN in the past on threads about whether to get X,Y or Z breed. The bias goes both ways, believe me, it does. Hatred of purebred dogs and cats runs deep in many people.

aperolspritzbasicbitch · 14/09/2024 15:44

I wonder if as dog owners, once we have a negative or awkward run in with a specific dog, we become a bit biased about that specific breed/mix breed/size of dog.

I've never had a negative experience with another poodle cross, but have had plenty with sausage dogs/other small breeds, so tend to label them all as little shites and steer clear of them. I'm more aware of them as I see the potential for a repeat issue.

That could go some way to explain why some see poodle mixes as the devil incarnate, and others have no issue.

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 16:07

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:43

I've been told by three people - two of them family members - that I should have adopted a rescue mongrel instead of going to a breeder for my pup, even though they know I've had the same breed for 45 years. I have also seen countless "Adopt Don't Shop" comments on MN in the past on threads about whether to get X,Y or Z breed. The bias goes both ways, believe me, it does. Hatred of purebred dogs and cats runs deep in many people.

I think the adopt don't shop thing applies to ANY puppy regardless if pure bred or not though.

It's totally ridiculous seeing as most shelters won't rehome to people with kids under the age of 10 or whatever plus personally I'm not rehoming any dog when I'm not sure of it's background and it's going to be around my children. I also wouldn't know of it's health... I get terribly attached to dogs and just wouldn't be happy rehoming one without knowing it was clear of certain conditions etc.

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 16:10

aperolspritzbasicbitch · 14/09/2024 15:44

I wonder if as dog owners, once we have a negative or awkward run in with a specific dog, we become a bit biased about that specific breed/mix breed/size of dog.

I've never had a negative experience with another poodle cross, but have had plenty with sausage dogs/other small breeds, so tend to label them all as little shites and steer clear of them. I'm more aware of them as I see the potential for a repeat issue.

That could go some way to explain why some see poodle mixes as the devil incarnate, and others have no issue.

Tbf every dachshund I've encountered has been a barky little fucker and they have back issues too don't they? Not judging though... unless my next door neighbour gets one 🙉😂

Mrsredlipstick · 14/09/2024 16:33

I have a cockapoo, not a covid dog.
Before that we have had a JRT, Doberman, German Shepherds x3 & labs.
The current dog is my favourite and he has changed my DH into a big softie. The man is always buying him toys and treats.
He is a sensitive little chap and if you are upset he will comfort you. We use to think he was a bit thick after our other dogs but he seems to be maturing. He does bark at our neighbours going past but he grew up on an isolated plot so he just needs training out of it.
He doesn't shed and he is an excellent foot warmer. I'm a big fan.

TempestTost · 14/09/2024 18:09

WalkingonWheels · 14/09/2024 06:03

@WiddlinDiddlin I was going to post something similar, for the hard of thinking who are comparing the careful, selective development of breeds for purpose, with the farming of poodle crosses.

The two are incomparable. The sole reason for breeding mutts is to make money. That's it. There are no reputable "breeders" of doodles, no matter how much people protest. They are still knowingly breeding puppies for cash.

Also, @CellophaneFlower ,everything you have said is incorrect 🙈

What are you talking about?

People breed them to create a useful family dog, or in some cases a useful working dog. Just like people have always bred dogs. Some to sell though it can be hard to make money selling dogs of any breed outside of a puppy mill situation.

People who breed purebred dogs sometimes do it for those reasons. Sometimes for money too, though the same caveats apply there.

Sometimes (often) for prizes in dog shows that have historically encouraged breed standards that were unhealthy and have ruined whole breeds of dogs. Which is probably the worst possible reason and the one that has destroyed more dogs than any other and resulted in more misery for the dogs.

Doodle and other people producing mixed dogs as pets or for work are never breeding for show or arbitrary standards which can only be a good thing.

TempestTost · 14/09/2024 18:21

lemonmeringueno3 · 14/09/2024 05:23

You seem to think that people buying doodles and poos don't know what they're buying a mongrel. Of course they do. Often you have to select mongrel when buying pet insurance online.

Those names are just a shorthand way of explaining the mix when asked.

They chose their dog for the same reason anyone chooses a dog - including characteristics, size and appearance. Some then train them into lovely pets, and some don't, just like with every other breed.

They are popular because word spreads that they are lovely pets, and because everyone knows someone who has one and recommends them. They are having a moment like dalmatiins in the 60s and numerous other breeds over the years.

Yes, these dog fads are never great for the dogs. Especially breeds that had smaller numbers to begin with. Breeders try and keep up with demand which causes issues, and people buy inappropriate (for them) popular breeds which makes it worse.

Dalmatians were a disaster, they are not good pets for most people even if there are no genetic issues. Many people were "blessed" with purebred dogs with serious genetic problems including deafness and neurological conditions.

Jack Russel Terriers, usually very healthy (not a "purebred dog" at all until very recently and that was controversial), but again, not a good dog for most people.

French Bulldogs and English Bulldogs - those are just a scandal.

Cocker Spaniels - when they became popular became known for problematic temperaments caused by a genetic fault.

Cavalier Spaniels - die young from heart failure plus serious neurological conditions.

It's difficult to see how this is any different from what people are complaining about with doodle dogs.

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 18:49

CellophaneFlower · 14/09/2024 16:07

I think the adopt don't shop thing applies to ANY puppy regardless if pure bred or not though.

It's totally ridiculous seeing as most shelters won't rehome to people with kids under the age of 10 or whatever plus personally I'm not rehoming any dog when I'm not sure of it's background and it's going to be around my children. I also wouldn't know of it's health... I get terribly attached to dogs and just wouldn't be happy rehoming one without knowing it was clear of certain conditions etc.

That makes perfect sense and you clearly did your research. Rehoming is too risky for a lot of us. Ironically, the people who told me to adopt have never even had a dog ffs; they're cat people. Adopting/rehoming cats is so much safer than risking an aggressive/nervous/reactive dog and I did explain but they still saw fit to tell me how immoral it is to be buying a puppy 🙄

We have elderly cats so for that reason we need a dog with a low prey drive. I'm also neurodiverse and highly anxious so familiarity is very important and it has to be a calm, quiet breed not a high energy barker. It's why it was a no-brainer to get the same breed again; I couldn't bear to get a rescue and then have to rehome it because we couldn't get along with it, that would just be cruel.

Sorry for going off topic a bit...

TempestTost · 14/09/2024 18:55

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 15:43

I've been told by three people - two of them family members - that I should have adopted a rescue mongrel instead of going to a breeder for my pup, even though they know I've had the same breed for 45 years. I have also seen countless "Adopt Don't Shop" comments on MN in the past on threads about whether to get X,Y or Z breed. The bias goes both ways, believe me, it does. Hatred of purebred dogs and cats runs deep in many people.

I think this viewpoint is a bit different from the snob angle. There are some people who seem to think any deliberately created dog is a bad thing. Sometimes they are against the idea of domestic pets in general. But - they think it is ok if it is a "rescue".

A lot of them have a saviour complex about it, they are always talking about "I saved this dog".

I will also say, I have some significant concerns about the purebred dog "system". Partly around the way kennel clubs are managed, but also around the idea of artificially totally limiting breed registry.This tends always to lead to a reduction over time in genetic variation, and with some of the breeds with smaller numbers can be the death knell for the breed because you have just created a genetic dead end. Even in a best case scenario you'll long term see reduction in fertility and more and more problems with things like cancer and immunity.

A lot of people don't realize some animals don't actually have closed breeds at all, chickens being an example - they are bred to type, pedigree isn't really important in itself. A chicken breeder, even for show, can cross out to strengthen any element of the breeding program. (Some dog breeds do have open or semi-open stud books too. Particularly historic dog types.)

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 20:08

TempestTost · 14/09/2024 18:55

I think this viewpoint is a bit different from the snob angle. There are some people who seem to think any deliberately created dog is a bad thing. Sometimes they are against the idea of domestic pets in general. But - they think it is ok if it is a "rescue".

A lot of them have a saviour complex about it, they are always talking about "I saved this dog".

I will also say, I have some significant concerns about the purebred dog "system". Partly around the way kennel clubs are managed, but also around the idea of artificially totally limiting breed registry.This tends always to lead to a reduction over time in genetic variation, and with some of the breeds with smaller numbers can be the death knell for the breed because you have just created a genetic dead end. Even in a best case scenario you'll long term see reduction in fertility and more and more problems with things like cancer and immunity.

A lot of people don't realize some animals don't actually have closed breeds at all, chickens being an example - they are bred to type, pedigree isn't really important in itself. A chicken breeder, even for show, can cross out to strengthen any element of the breeding program. (Some dog breeds do have open or semi-open stud books too. Particularly historic dog types.)

Oh with my family it's just reverse snobbery/virtue signalling with regard to the pedigree dog issue. They're not anti-pets as such, they just think they're better human beings than I am because they adopt unwanted cats whereas my pets are purebred.

So with regard to what you refer to as the purebred dogs "system" / closed breeds, what would that mean regarding dogs that work, be it hunting/retrieving/herding or guarding...? I mean a chicken is a chicken pretty much but many breeds/types or groups of dogs have been bred for centuries to possess and retain certain character traits... Not all "purity" of dog breeds is related to pet dogs or the physical type; there are working breeds that need to remain largely true to type/breed characteristics or else they will lose the ability to do the job they were bred for. As an example, introducing a hunting breed to a livestock protection dog would make no sense in a dog that is required to have a low prey drive...

I'm unsure as to your meaning or viewpoint on this. Is this just yet another way of suggesting that mongrels or crossbreeds are genetically sounder/healthier than purebred dogs?

PigglyWigglyOhYeah · 14/09/2024 20:29

I have a cockapoo and don't really recognise some of the comments on here. He's not hyperactive, is affectionate, fine with being left alone, has good recall, walks nicely on the lead and is a super family dog, who plays beautifully with children. I've had other breeds before, so am not some crazed 'furbaby' newbie. We have done some basic training with him, as with all previous dogs, and he was taken to it all really well. Some people have awful dogs because they are shit dog owners, just as lots of people have awful kids because they are shit parents.

TempestTost · 14/09/2024 21:13

AubrieDog · 14/09/2024 20:08

Oh with my family it's just reverse snobbery/virtue signalling with regard to the pedigree dog issue. They're not anti-pets as such, they just think they're better human beings than I am because they adopt unwanted cats whereas my pets are purebred.

So with regard to what you refer to as the purebred dogs "system" / closed breeds, what would that mean regarding dogs that work, be it hunting/retrieving/herding or guarding...? I mean a chicken is a chicken pretty much but many breeds/types or groups of dogs have been bred for centuries to possess and retain certain character traits... Not all "purity" of dog breeds is related to pet dogs or the physical type; there are working breeds that need to remain largely true to type/breed characteristics or else they will lose the ability to do the job they were bred for. As an example, introducing a hunting breed to a livestock protection dog would make no sense in a dog that is required to have a low prey drive...

I'm unsure as to your meaning or viewpoint on this. Is this just yet another way of suggesting that mongrels or crossbreeds are genetically sounder/healthier than purebred dogs?

Yes - I do think you are right, it is a kind of snobbery and virtue signalling.

So, it's useful to understand how we got the purebred dog system we have now.

Historically, you had certain types of dogs, like sighthounds, or herding dogs, etc. Humans would deliberately select dogs that they wanted to propagate the characteristics of to breed together. You also had geographical constraints. So what you got was a tendency to see certain working types and also geographical types. You might find herd dogs in all kinds of places with herd animals, and they might have some common characteristics, but not be related. But there were no "rules" anyone had to follow, you could choose a very different dog to breed in if you wanted to achieve something (say, a larger dog line.) And lots of dogs just went around and had indiscriminate sex, so people would pick up puppies that had good qualities for their own use, whatever their parentage.

A good example of this is to look at all the small terriers used for the same kinds of tasks in the UK. Their jobs were valuable so people kept them, and you see that slightly different types appear in different areas. But the borders and edges were often porous unless there were strong geographic barriers.

During the Victorian period, some people got the idea that you could create more perfect dogs by defining each of these types according to a standard, which was created by looking at the best example of the dogs (in the opinion of the people who were seen as experts.) They then registered those dogs, and to be given certification you had to show the pedigree of your puppies was entirely from the dogs admitted into the registration. It was no longer possible to cross out, and any accidental crosses weren't admitted either.

Interestingly, some of the working dog breeds were not part of this process, notably border collies. Jack Russel Terriers are another example. For those dogs, as long as they could do the work, they would be admitted to their separate breed societies (or some just didn't even have breed societies.) It was very very controversial when border collies became eligible for KC registration under the KC kinds of rules.

The difficulty with all this is that the scientific theory that limiting to perfect specimens will lead to an improved breed isn't really scientifically valid. At the time the system was created, it was considered to be true. But it's now better understood that genetic variation, including in phenotype, is generally an advantage, that there is no such thing as a "pure" bloodline really, and also that decreased genetic variation can lead to bottlenecks. Eventually this tends to lead to decreased fertility, and also more cancer. (We understand this where humans are concerned so I am not sure why it's controversial when we say it about dogs.)

As for what dogs people breed together in order to achieve some purpose, it can vary but usually they try not to undermine their project. You will see ein some dog-sledding they will use pointers, even though they are not very weather-resistant, but they have some qualities that are desirable. They may cross back several generations beyond that. It can be surprising though - my husband used to have a mixed breed gun dog - and accidental lab-husky mix. She was a fabulous gun dog, though could never have been in trials as she was very unconventional. But for actually hunting she was pretty unmatched.

Alli88 · 14/09/2024 21:20

I work with dogs and the last dog on earth I'd ever get is a cockapoo. Depending on the percentage mix they can be nippy, antisocial dogs and most have a trigger point. There's no way of telling if you've got a good one or a bad one until it's too late. Some breeds should never be crossed and that's and poodles and cockers are definitely on that list.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 14/09/2024 21:29

Csdrassticcallychanginngnnammes · 14/09/2024 09:59

Any breed can have dogs that turn out like your sister’s dogs. You just can’t use two dogs as evidence to condemn an entire breed, as being dreadful.

Why on earth recommend a poodle cross, if you really think poodles are awful? When you breed dogs, you can’t pick and choose which traits they inherit.

Poodles aren’t born with stupid haircuts. It’s stupid humans who cut them like that. Our poodle is cut the same all over and looks like a normal dog. This is what a poodle looks like at nine weeks. See, no stupid pom poms!

Why are you so bothered about trying to persuade me a poodle is a perfect dog 😂 I don't like them. My choice I'd never have one. 🙄