Dd screams for hours if she doesn't get her own way

[whatswiththerain]

We are so exhausted with it. We put her to bed and she (dd6) will demand a drink/snack/toy/phone and scream for hours refusing to go to bed until she gets what she wants.
Of course we try not to give in but she won't stop and there gets a point where we can't take any more and give in so when we try and be stronger the next time she just fights for longer.
It's every night and bedtime is just an example, tonight she had spaghetti bolognaise and wanted cheese on top she got that and ate the cheese first and screamed and refused to eat anymore without more cheese.
If we give a consequence she'll scream and scream about it and as much as we know giving in is the problem, it's become so much of a problem that it takes over the whole evening and nighttime until we are so exhausted with her we just have to give in because we have no energy left and need to go to bed.
I know we've done this ourselves but I don't know to change it now it's done.

@Goody2ShoesAndTheFilthyBeast this is a great response!

Probably been said many times on this thread before, but just ignore her.

Have you heard of autism?

Please can people just stop saying 'autism'. Not every issue is down to that: and not every person with autism will scream and scream for hours. Even if s/he has autism there has to be a way to manage it, not just keep saying 'autism'. FWIW my adult son has autism and ADHD, he had meltdowns as a child and still becomes agitated, but it's not screaming for hours. Autism covers a huge range of behaviours and reactions. I don't know if this child has it, no one will unless there is an assessment, but there will be other indicators of autism.

This. It seems like every child who has tantrums these days,or flap their arms with excitement which can also be very normal, people scream autism or ADHD. Obviously there are children who after a long period of assessment will eventually be diagnosed as autistic. There needs to be a whole host of very specific symptoms. To suggest a child has autism due to normal temper tantrums, which although hard work they usually grow out of it, is imo disrespectful to people managing children with autism on a daily basis.

There also seems to be a suggestion that if a child may have ASD traits that this means they can't be parented. It often seems to suggest parents are incapable of addressing issues or that a diagnosis means a child.need have no boundaries or expectations.

Sometimes I'm sure it may be helpful- especially in moving away from the idea that behaviour must be rewarded or punished, and revealing the limitations of authoritarianism parenting.

But.it can often too easily support the idea of permissive parenting, which is disempowering and potentially harmful.

The best approach imo is the moderate and.middle road in which we do our best to communicate with children and help them to learn, maintain strong boundaries and compassion. That should help all children, ASD or not.

So u need to stop giving in she knows if she screams she gets her own way, break the cycle it’ll b a hard couple of weeks, but u have allowed her to become a monster.

Just say no. You need to tell her that she is a big girl now and screaming is for babies. If she continues to act like a baby, you will have no choice but to treat her like one. Tell her she will need to go back into a cot. Go to bed earlier. Have other nice "big girl" things taken away.

PPs are right. You are reinforcing her bad behaviour by caving to it. Stop now, or she will never outgrow it. You will be doing her a favour, teaching her that she must learn to regulate her own emotions when she doesn't get what she wants. It is called parenting.

The thing with neurodivergence though is that yes, of course those children still need parenting, but parenting a ND child looks (and feels!) very, very different to parenting a NT child, though it's often aimed at achieving the same outcomes. If you throw PDA into the autism spectrum, for example, the strategies recommended by professionals to achieve the right outcomes are actually completely alien to most parents. I say this as the parent of one NT child, and one who is on the autism assessment pathway. Also, an autistic child who is, say, 6 years old, may have the social, emotional and communication skills (complete with the emotional dysregulation) most often seen in toddlers. We set them against a false benchmark, comparing them to similarly aged children, which, developmentally speaking, is completely inaccurate. That's not to say they cannot or should not learn how to respond more appropriately, just that it yields better results when you take a different approach. Op's dd sounds like my dd about that age, when she reached such a low point (mental breakdown) that we began to forget just how wonderful (and rule/ boundary abiding!) she normally is. She fell apart shortly after starting school - used all her energy holding everything together at school, adhering to all the rules and social norms, became an absolute monster at home. Until then, the only thing 'different' about her had been some tactile sensitivity (shoes/ socks annoying her) during periods of transition (such as leaving for a day out).

Op's dd likely isn't ND and there's plenty of advice here for her to choose from and try out in the first instance. But if the usual parenting strategies don't work, she may find that looking at some of those recommended for ND children may work - even if she doesn't believe her dd is ND.

Interesting comments here regarding autism. In my era of bringing up children in the 90s the children who had regular tantrums, only ate certain foods,refused to wear certain clothes etc were known as 'difficult' children who grew up to be well adjusted NT adults some who went on to have a few unusual idiosyncrasies. It was only children with absent speech,delayed speech, hand biting and serious developmental & behavioural issues etc who were referred for assessment. Changed days indeed.

i was one of those children, i am not a 'well adjusted NT adult' my autism/adhd didn't suddenly go away, i have just got better at masking and working around it.

I buy my own clothes, so i know they're comfortable, i only eat the foods i like.. i'm not forced to sit with a plate of food that makes me gag at the thought of eating it. I still have meltdowns, but i know myself and know when they're coming and how to divert or remove myself to stop them affecting other people.

Such ignorance and ablism there. omg. You don't grow out of Autism/ADHD.

I've not read the full thread sorry. But I notice a lot of posters say they would not back down e.g. on the cheese issue. Maybe I'm a bad parent but on a small issue like this I actually might back down in a way that meets her half way. To avoid a situation where both sides are digging their heels in.

So I might say "Okay DD, you can have some more cheese if you can stop that noise and ask nicely for it".

I would definitely back down on this, pick your battles, kids need to be able to make some decisions for themselves you can't control every little thing and this is a little thing IMO

Let's be honest, there was a lot wrong with the 90s

Noise cancelling headphones with soothing music playing for you and husband. Tell her all her screaming has made you all go deaf and you can't hear her anymore.
Maybe if she stops you'll get your hearing back. Anything she asks keep repeating that and just keep doing the work of looking after her without any actual speaking or listening. You don't listen to a word she says and see how that goes.
Oh and stop giving in.

I have mentioned autism and I stand by it. Girls are often overlooked in terms of getting an assessment, so imo it is reasonable to suggest it.

But also a lot of the posts on here are directly shaming the mother, criticising her, mocking her even. Pointing out how they wouldn't allow this for a second.

And I want to let people know that it may well not be as simple as this.

The OP has another daughter who is well behaved, so I doubt she is a useless parent.

One of my daughters has PDA, which is on the autistic spectrum. My Life was made much harder by outsiders who thought all she needed was tough discipline. In fact, power struggles are the last thing that works for these children.

I originally suggested a CAMHS referral for support and I stand by that. But it could also be sensory issues, diet...it won't hurt to get some professional input.

Of course you don't grow out of autism. You have misread my post. My point was when I was bringing up my children in the 90s it wasn't assumed that children who were fussy eaters,difficult to control, or had regular tantrums were autistic which seems to happen more and more these days. That's not to say they're all NT as many do go on to rightly so receive an autistic diagnosis.

I'd have said well don't eat it then, you won't get anything else until breakfast. She won't starve if she misses one meal.

Hi Op, I could have written this myself when my daughter was that age. She is 16 now. She was this child until about a year ago, now she is the most wonderful person. Obviously she hasn’t forgotten and can’t believe how she behaved for so many years. We worked out she has autism a few months ago and although we won’t follow any process (she doesn’t need support for her eduction) just knowing helps. She doesn’t fit many of the traits which is why we suspected but didn’t really know. Her paediatrician has been fantastic. she also went through early puberty and grew very quickly.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is not all children who scream and throw tantrums and are ‘that child’ grow up to be selfish adults who always wants their way. Sometimes it’s just a journey and they do get through it. My daughter is now fab, a high achiever (9’s) and is so easy to be with.
my god do I remember spending most days disliking her, thinking of new ways to say no and mean it. The anger I felt sometimes was unreal. She would lie and scream to get her way and be an angel for anyone else! It’s gets better. Stand your ground and don’t feel guilty (which you will) I had to do this in the end. Lay your rules down and let her choose. The easy way or the hard way! She’s old enough to understand that.

Have a look into something called PDA just in case it fits, as my son has this and people's well-meaning advice to "be strong and not give in" would actually make things a whole lot worse. Also The Explosive Child book could be a good read as behaviour is communication and she may be trying to communicate a lagging skill or unmet need, in which case again discipline isn't going to help.

Going completely against the grain, but have you heard of pathological demand avoidance (PDA)? If not, have a read up on it. Absolutely not saying she has it, but the fact that you have a very well behaved older child suggests to me that this is not purely down to parenting.

Have you spoken with her class teacher about this? It would be useful for you and them to know if she's the same in the school. It could help to have a similar approach to her behaviour at home and school, the same language, redirection etc.

In my parenting era (also the 1990s) much the same. What's happened since is a recognition that especially in girls there's a less obvious childhood presentation of autistic development delay that doesn't cause such severe behaviour as you describe. The effects can be intense social anxiety and mental breakdown later in life. Girls with this presentation of autism tend to have better communication skills, be better at masking by copying other kids in public (e.g. school) while breaking down when their energy runs out at home, and tend to internalise more than boys so the behaviour issues are less serious.

All very interesting. It does make me wonder though if there is ever a case nowadays for spoiled overindulgence,eg whatever they want they get attitudes,also addiction to tablets etc being considered before jumping to the ADHD/autism possibility without trying out different parenting tequniques. There are undoubtedly children who are more difficult to cope with than others. They are often hyperactive, demanding, stubborn and dare I say it very clever & easily bored. Before I'm berated, it's just a thought having met many children who were described as a total nightmare. I've kept in touch with one of the parents whose child was described as such. She is now a well balanced excellent Teacher & a lovely young lady with no apparent mental health issues.